The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why isn't UR obvious?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#21

To me, the most compelling reason against ECT is the sparcity of biblical evidence for it

In one way, I agree with you:

  1. Why didn’t God warn Adam and Eve about it?
  2. Why didn’t god warn the rest of the O.T. folks about it?
  3. Why wasn’t it a developed idea my the time Jesus was talking about it?

On the other hand, there are numerous “proof texts” with many given by Jesus himself. True, those texts are debatable, but they are there and they are not easy. God obviously knew that ECT was going to be the dominant theology throughout history. Knowing this, He could have made the Bible clearer, but He did not. For reasons I don’t yet understand, God made it unclear.

#22

I suppose that I expect theology to be complicated, not real simple, for several reasons. I believe:

  1. God is so infinitely beyond what we can understand that it’s like a man born blind trying to understand color.
  2. The effects of sin are far more devestating, blinding than we can comprehend.
  3. The Bible was written by men from differing times, cultures, languages, paradigms, etc., from eachother, and radically differing from us.
  4. Most of us are dependant upon English translations to even study scripture. And no translation, imo, is 100% accurate.
    And 5) we all have traditions that hinder us from correctly understanding scripture.

All of these reasons point to how utterly dependant upon God we are for salvation, for revelation from Him of who He is. Without His self-revelation we’re blind and lost concerning who He is and what He’s like.

#23

These are excellent points, Sherman!

#24

From Ephesians 1…

With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the **mystery **of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Why isn’t UR obvious? Because indeed it is a mystery…! It is God who makes known the mystery of Christ, to whomever He wants, whenever He wants. In all humility, I would be the first to acknowledge that my understanding of His will, which He purposed in Christ, is fuzzy at best. Yet I seem to have a glimpse… what a precious gift I’ve been given. :slight_smile:

#25
#26

I was thinking about this further, as I’ve been reviewing the many, MANY passages that at face value seem to clearly indicate UR. The more I studied these passages in their literary context, the more “clearly” they seemed to affirm UR. On the other hand, the more I studied seemingly pro-ECT passages in context, the less they seemed to affirm ECT at all or line up with the traditional doctrine of salvation being based on faith. For example, have you noticed how scriptures that speak of aionian punishment are ususally couched in hyperbole or metaphor.

Hyperbole, overstatement not meant to be taken literally, example, “If you eye sins pluck it out…” is not meant to be taken literally, but is meant to make a point concerning being purposeful and agressive in seeking to not sin. Why then would we take the associated warning in the same passage literally instead of hyperbole also? Also, have you ever noticed that the language of punishment, though it be remedial punishment, is always couched in the most negative of terms possible, and rarely ever mentions anything that might mitigate the fear that such statements are meant to impress. Such language is meant to convey fear of punishment and mentioning that it’s for the person’s good does not help that purpose. Is hyperbole and metaphorical language meant to be taken literally? Of course not. But it should be understood based on it’s literary style.

On the other hand though, most of the UR passages are not couched in hyperbole or metaphor, but are in didactic material, especially Paul’s UR statements. Though there are some UR passages that are metaphorical, prophetic, and even poetical. To me though, the weight of scriptural evidence falls on the side of UR.

#27

Amen! I’ve tried to explain this, when looking at some of Jesus’ parables, which being parables, are purposefully dramatic, partly to drive home the point to the big crowds, presumably from many backgrounds and with broad spectrum of education/intelligence i.e. no point presenting lots of technical details, if it will go over the heads of most of the audience (I realize Jesus had other reasons too). Quite a different literary style to say Paul’s letter to the Romans!

And yet a lot of the ECT “proof” texts *are *these dramatic parables e.g. The Parable of the Sheep & Goats, The Parable of the 10 Virgins, The Parable of the Weeds (the explanation still uses metaphorical language, like “fiery furnace”)! I’m not saying you can’t use Parables for teaching, I’m just reluctant to base “core” (that’s how ECT is portrayed by many) doctrines on their details :neutral_face:

#28

Alex,

I was listening to the discussion with Brian McLaren on the online UR media/fellowship that Andrew noted, and he, McLaren brought up an interesting point concerning interpreting passages like the parables, highlighting the difference between interpreting them Ontologically (the nature of the way things are) as oppossed to Rhetorically (telling a story to make a point).

Concerning the simile in Mt. 25 of the separation of the kids from the flock, the point of the passage is motivating us to look out for the needs of others. And he also pointed out that it speaks of the “nations”, and wondered if this passage was encouraging us to work in our communities, whether that be our cities, states, nations, or fellowships, working to move them/us to watch out for the needs of the minorities, the disinfranchized, the poor, the prisoners, the sick, those in bondage of various types. It’s a very interesting interpretation.

Anyhow, I find it amazing that people want to translate certain parts literally, but not other parts. For example, those who affirm “eternal punishment” as being ECT in Mt. 25, in turn do not want to take the basis for the judgment metioned literally, that being how one treats the less fortunate, if one is socially compassionate or not.

I believe that you are correct in that ECT proof texts are usually couched in Rhetorical language, not Ontological or didactic. Of course, helping others to see this is very challenging. People have been taught from childhood certain concepts and it is very difficult for them, for us, to see things differently.

#29

Great discussion folks, but I’ve been wondering lately if there is something more fundamental that we are missing. I’ve been thinking Adam’s sin and it seems to me that the DNA that has spread through humanity is the desire to be like God and to know the difference between good and evil. These are very noble goals yet I have come to the conclusion that this may be what blinds us from knowing Him. The whole idea that I can be like him brings with it the knowledge that I am not and that,in order to become like him, I must do something. This causes us to set out to do something. First we must know what is good and what is evil and make every effort to be good and not evil. This effort, again a very noble thing, causes us to trust in our efforts and not Him.

Still trying to work this out in my own mind so I know its jumbled but I wonder if this is not what Paul was saying in Romans 11:32?

#30

I read this today at rabbitroom.com

#31

We are blinded in so many ways and by so many things. I think UR is obvious to those of us who have been given eyes to see it. Fortunately, that number is growing.
There is a huge amount of religious thinking, teaching and baggage that we have to look through in order to see it, though.

I remember back when I was first presented with the idea through a completely unrelated topic (in which someone made a comment and posted a link to a universalist site), I was pretty resistant to it, even though it compelled me. I remember sitting there thinking; "could this person be right about what he’s saying (writing)? It seems to make sense to me, more than what I thought I knew, but it goes against everything I’ve been taught! Then the Holy Spirit tapped me on the shoulder, and said; “Well, how much of what you already know to be true goes against everything you have been taught?”…

Thus began the journey.

#32

Cavemen who thought a demon was lurking in the forest had a greater chance of surviving than those who thought it was an angel. But once said cavemen had gardens, livestock and secure borders, the opposite became true. While those who believed in demons cowered in caves, sacrificing their children to dark gods, those who believed in angels wrote poetry, made music and explored the world.

Perhaps humanity can be divided in two: those who fear demons and those who seek angels. Or more likely, there’s a bit of both in each of us. In this context, I see ECT on one side and UR on the other.

The modern mind thinks it’s above such things, but it merely transfers our ancient fear onto new objects. Overpopulation, global warming, peak oil, meltdowns ad nauseum. The airwaves are full of it. It oozes into our blood like black oil. And it demands sacrifice.

But we are not to be like that. We have a new mind. We have a Father in heaven who cares for us. God is good. He loves us. In the end, we have nothing to fear. Let us therefore enjoy the glory as it rushes past. Why not sit down this afternoon and write a poem? Call some beauty into the world.

#33

Well, in my search for the truthery I’ve come to believe that God unfolds His Plan to us gradually. He has different aspects of His nature and levels of dealing with man, which also align with the three main feasts: Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. This concept is covered for example in the book The A’s, B’s and C’s of our spiritual walk.

Also, some are of the opinion that since Reformation began in the late 1400’s, two waves of spiritual awakening have swept over Christendom, and the third and final one is sweeping over God’s Creation now. First came the truth that simple faith in Jesus Christ alone is what restores and transforms us. Next came the revelation that the Holy Spirit’s miraculous power is still available to all who seek and desire it. The third wave is revealing God’s kingdom and true character in a manner never before seen in human history. Charles Slagle and I believe Gary Amirault have written about the subject.

On some UR site I once read a testimony of a woman who had asked God “Why did you create all these billions of people if you knew in advance most of them would end up in hell?” God had answered something like “Well, you created six children fully knowing some of them may end up making really bad choices in life. I did the same, I just created billions of them.” At that point the answer had been satisfactory to the woman. However, some years later (when she had grown more mature in faith) the woman said she had received another revelation from God, which made her a convinced UR believer. It seems that UR isn’t always revealed to new believers.

#34

I think you’re on the right track here. This definitely goes back to the Garden and the Tree, and why we were instructed not to eat of it. In order to judge good and evil for ourselves, we have to start making comparisons that we are not qualified to make, which always end up being negative and destructive. I believe this is part of the reason why God instructed A&E not to go there; God is the only one qualified to judge because He is the only one capable of doing it without producing a negative result. Judging between good and evil apart from God requires that our soul, rather than spirit, be in charge; and we all know what that leads to…

#35

I’d like to think that the test in the Garden is all part of His plan. I mean, here is God deciding to put up two trees, one that leads to eternal life, one that leads to death, right in the middle of Adam and Eve’s existence and then turning around and telling them not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (which I think that He could have used any old tree. It wasn’t the tree that provided the knowledge).

It doesn’t take a god to see what the predictable outcome would be. What, do you think that God didn’t know what would happen? Do you think the serpent didn’t know what would happen? All the serpent did was speed things along. If God didn’t want Adam and Eve to have a choice in the matter, why would He place the tree there in the first place?

Well, one might think that God is tempting man. Well yes. Oh, but what about James 1:13, “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil”

But God wasn’t tempting man with evil. God was tempting man with good.

#36

I think it’s part of the plan, too. I was just pointing out part of the reason why God warned them against it. (And if the story is more metaphorical than literal, it needn’t have been an actual tree at all.) I mean, we all know our children are going to inevitably mess up too, but that doesn’t stop us warning them so that when they do, they learn that disobedience and/ or foolish choices have consequences, some more immediate than others. :laughing: Still, the point is the learning process. Ironically, we only learn from making mistakes…

#37

Getting back to the main topic, though; There seem to be a number of things that tend to blind us to it. One is the influence of tradition, which is very powerful. Our prejudices often prevent us from seeing the truth of a matter when it would otherwise be obvious. We have a tendency to see what we expect to see. Another is the tensions present in scripture which are there for a purpose, though they can appear at odds with one another. Since it seems that we have a natural tendency toward pessimism, that tends to cause us to interpret the situation by giving more weight to the negative side of things, which perhaps is part of our natural defense mechanisms working their way out into our consciousness. For example, how often have we heard the phrase; “expect the best, and plan for the worst”? (A sort of pragmatic pessimism). Another interesting thing is that during Jesus’ earthly ministry, he pointed out to the disciples that the secrets of the kingdom weren’t for everyone; and that at least in some cases, if he had spoken plainly, some would have “gotten it” and been saved! (Which tells me that he had a specific order in mind; that not everyone should receive the message right away, and that their salvation was to come later for whatever reason) So it seems that at least part of the message was intentionally obscured, and only those that had ears to hear could hear. Another thing is our tendency to be very literal and narrowly focused in our reading of scripture like the Pharisees were, which in conjunction with the hardness of heart, causes us not to recognize the Truth when it’s standing right in front of us…

Those are just a few ideas. I’m sure there are more contributing factors.

#38

I believe UR does not exist when you put all the scriptures back in context they use to support it. :wink:

#39

absolute tosh.
UR has as much if not more Scriptural support as any of the main schools of thought.

#40

I think that for overall scriptural support, not just proof texts, but also the harmonization of all scripture together, that UR works the best with annihilation coming in second and ECT coming in third. Arguments for annihilation are very powerful. ECT makes the bible out to be a jumbled mess that makes no sense - full of contradictions. Some proof texts are strong, but the overall effect ends up making no sense.