Just a point of clarification. I don’t accuse my ECT-believing brethren of pulling ECT out of thin air. Heck, I used to believe the same thing, for precisely the reasons you mention here. I have neither the right nor the wish to deride anyone.
My point was simply that with Paul… the preeminent evangelist of all time… there is a distinct disconnect between traditional teaching of ECT, along with most modern-day evangelism, and the record we have of the gospel as Paul preached it. I think that disconnect is a very important and telling bit of information. But it is axiomatic, of course, that there is far, far more to the case for universal reconciliation in Jesus Christ than the absence of ECT in Paul’s preaching.
Johnny already acknowledged he kind of over-exuberantly exaggerated. (There are some things about eonian crisis in GosJohn, too, of course, but he wasn’t really thinking of the gospels.)
Mais bien sur! But, as Jason says, I wasn’t thinking of the gospels, which chronicle Christ’s life and sayings, only of His Apostles, the men who first started to spread the gospel after His ascension. *They *don’t seem to have deemed it necessary to play the eternal hell card in their evangelism - eg as documented in Acts. Might that be because they didnt believe it themselves?
The traditional doctrine of an eternal hell is built almost entirely on the sayings of Jesus as recorded in the gospels (for there is no mention of it in the OT). And as many of us here know and accept, this is an interpretation based on dodgy translations, dodgy, history, dodgy reasoning. dodgy logic and dodgy pretty much everything else!
When people are first converted to Christianity (or indeed to other faiths, or indeed any kind of cause or belief) they often become highly evangelical about it, wanting to buttonhole everyone they know and try and get them to share in the good news. That is how I still feel about UR! It’s the best news I’ve ever heard! And I still get excited and evangelical about it!
I suppose my point rests on my assumption that the apostle Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew. If he didn’t then I understand your post. If he did, then I maintain that
is misleading (to me at least). If the apostle Matthew recorded Jesus talking about Hell, then he has mentioned Hell in his writings.
Can you clarify Johnny?
Jason:
Jason, I’m afraid that I really don’t understand your comment at all (as a reply to my post of course). If you actually quote where Johnny ‘already acknowledged…etc’ that might help (or just allow Johnny to speak for himself but thanks anyway).
To explain where I’m coming from, I try to guard (myself) against any ‘stretching’ of UR evidence because I don’t want to give my ECT friends any wiggle room. I’ve always thought that a more persuasive argument might be made if caution or even understatement is used. If I make a claim that is not quite legit, then (with the friends I have) it might take quite a while to re-gain credibility.
It would be really interesting to list the apostles from whom we have any teachings recorded -which of them mentioned (what might be interpreted as) UR and which of them mentioned (what might be interpreted as) ECT.
I’m happy to clarify that yes, strictly speaking, ‘Matthew’ - if the author of the Gospel bearing that name is indeed the same person as the one who was a member of the twelve Apostles given the great commission by Christ (which I guess can never be proven or disproven emphatically) - does *report * stuff that *can be interpreted *as teaching some form of eternal punishment for the wicked. That the NT *appears *to teach such a doctrine has never been in doubt. What matters to me is what it *actually does *teach.
But my point remains the same: if the Apostles - the twelve who were personally commissioned by Jesus to preach the Gospel - along with the specially-appointed ‘thirteenth Apostle’ Paul only mention ‘eternal hell’ briefly, or don’t mention it at all, it is clearly and obviously not central to their message.
Can you imagine the conversation?
James: Hey guys, all these poor unsaved people out there, you know, if they don’t believe what we’re telling them about Jesus being the only way to salvation, God is going to consign them to fiery torture for ever and ever.
Thomas: Oh I doubt that, I really do.
John: No, Jim’s got a point, Tommy. But let’s keep all that hell stuff to ourselves, eh? Don’t want to alarm everybody, do we?
I thought I linked to his comment where he said he had overexaggerated. {checking} Yep, the link is still there, and still goes to that comment.
I’ll quote it so you won’t have to click the link I provided:
I quite agree with that procedure.
True; I gave a sort of preliminary list offhand when I was explaining to Johnny I thought he was being unfair to non-universalists about taking a position that (supposedly) hangs on only one statement from Paul, itself (supposedly) easily disposed of.
GosMatt: written by or based on material written by the Apostle Matthew (possibly redacted by a successor in his community or ‘school’); itself most likely incorporating an agreed public synopsis of apostolic teaching. Apparently hopeless punishment shows up not only in shared apostolic material, like the sin against the Holy Spirit, but in unique M material like the judgment of the sheep and the goats and the parable of the foolish virgins. Regarded in ancient times as either the oldest Gospel or, in its Greek form, based on the oldest Hebrew/Aramaic Gospel.
GosMark: compiled by John Mark, eventual bishop of Alexandria and a longtime assistant of the apostles Peter and Paul (and a cousin of the disciple and evangelist Barnabas–possibly also the young man at the tomb and/or the disciple sitting at Jesus’ right hand during the Last Supper and/or the disciple who ran with Peter to the tomb and/or the young man who fled from the arrest), with strong internal and external evidence of being a written representation of the teaching of the apostle Peter. Numerous apparently hopeless punishment statements, all of them shared by GosMatt, GosLuke or both.
GosLuke: the prequel to Acts, compiled by Luke the physician, close associate of the apostle Paul, based on extensive research into eyewitness testimony handed down by the “deputies” (literally “under-rowers”) of Christ (the Word/Logos). Numerous apparently hopeless punishment statements, shared by GosMatt, GosMark or both; also some famous ones in his unique material (like the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus). On occasion, he ramps up (or reports ramped up versions of) material into a more zorchy style (e.g. the parable of the minas in chapter 19, which unlike the Matthean version features a subplot about citzens who don’t want the inheriting king reigning over them being brought to him upon his return to be slain in his presence.)
GosJohn: written by the apostle John or by a close associate of Jesus and the apostles (or maybe both, with the latter compiling material from the former, like John Mark did for Peter. The latter very possibly being John Mark again, based on interesting similarities and overlaps with GosMark!) One ancient tradition regards this as the oldest written material in any of the Gospels, based on notes taken by one of the apostles (or one of their close associates) very shortly after the resurrection, interviewing them for remembrances. Mostly contains unique material compared with the Synoptics, but includes several apparently hopeless punishment statements from Jesus in that unique material.
2 Thessalonians: written by the apostle Paul, features the only strong statement of apparently hopeless punishment in texts attributed directly to him. (Strong enough that subsequent statements from him in the next chapter concerning the antichrist and his followers are also often interpreted as involving hopeless punishment coming to them, too.)
Hebrews: written either by the apostle Paul or by a close associate (Barnabas, Apollos, John Mark, Luke, Priscilla, Philip the Evangelist, etc. Due to the close topical connections to Alexandrian/Philonic Judaism, which the author goes to much trouble to address and critique, Apollos or John Mark would be my guesses.) Features several vivid apparently hopeless punishment statements.
James: written by a brother of Jesus and first leader of the Jerusalem church (not an apostle but he might as well have been). Features at least one warning of apparently hopeless punishment coming to rich men if they don’t repent 5:1-3.
1 & 2 Peter, and Jude: written by the apostle Peter and by a brother of Jesus (the latter apparently serving the former as scribe, then writing his own epistle to his own congregation paralleling Peter’s). Features several famous prophecies and warnings of apparently hopeless punishment.
1 John: written by either the apostle John, or by a John (Mark?) who was familiar with GosJohn material and who had enough authority to have his epistle eventually accepted into the canon. (Interestingly, 3 John involves apparently the same author complaining about someone in authority named Diotrephenes rejecting what he says and excommunicating his followers!) At least one statement of apparently hopeless punishment (among other statements about punishment more generally), involving a sin to the death that is not to be prayed for (5:16) compared to other sins which can be prayed for.
RevJohn: written by either the apostle John or by another John (Mark?!) who had authority to send messages from Jesus Christ Himself to no less than seven churches in Asia. Famously thick with apparently hopeless punishment statements, including some warnings from Jesus Christ personally (through the author).
I would say a list of texts with apparent EU testimony, either prima facie or in context, would include most of these texts, too, of course! Sometimes involving texts apparently against EU turning out, in context, to be strongly in favor of it! But it isn’t as though New Testament texts involving hopeless punishment are exactly rare. (Nor are apparently hopeless punishment texts exactly rare in the OT, although ECT per se seems rare.)
To the prior list I should probably add that, while Acts itself may not talk much about apparently hopeless fate/judgment/punishment, it does talk quite a bit about coming judgment, including as part of evangelical sermons. And one of the sermons, preached by the apostle Paul and Barnabas in chapter 13, has also been occasionally applied by Calvinists and/or annihilationists as testimony that there are people who scoff at the work of God in Christ, who will never come to believe in it and who will perish (or disappear) as a result after marveling that the work happens after all.
So even Acts isn’t altogether free of apparently hopeless punishment warnings/prophecies.
(This is aside from the ruthlessly fatal punishment from God on Ananias and his wife Sapphira in chapter 5–while strictly speaking it’s neutral in its results, indicating nothing explicitly about hopeless punishment, neither does it say anything about the punishment being hopeful: and it comes so quickly on each of them for their sin that they don’t have an opportunity to repent!)
I always wondered about the death of Ananias and Sapphira, even when I believed in ECT. A severe punishment, indeed. Even harsher if it were to be followed by ECT.
I wonder now if it can be compared at all to how Paul handed Hymaneus and Alexander over to Satan so they would learn not to blaspheme, or perhaps more directly, the person among the Corinthians guilty of incest, whom Paul had already judged and who he instructed the Corinthians to hand over to Satan for “the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.”
Looked at in that light, it seems at least possible that Peter was doing what was, in the long run, best for Ananias and Sapphira.
True–the difference is that in 1 Cor Paul tells us what the goal is (I would argue he tells us using similar language in regard to the Day of the Lord, at 2 Thess 1, too); while the incident in Acts does not, leaving the reader to question how (and from where) to interpret what happened.
Jason. I did read the link but I’ve only now got the point you were making (the penny has finally dropped as we say over here). Thank you. And thank you for that list which I find very helpful and informative.
Johnny. Yes. I certainly agree with you that consideration of the scarcity of (purported) ECT passages in non-gospel NT writings (with the exception of Revelation) has to sound alarm bells for any thoughtful ecter.
From what I recall (which may be completely wrong) I think the author of Revelation was not the apostle John was it?
As a matter of interest, I read an article some time ago suggesting that the author of the fourth gospel was actually Lazarus and although the idea seemed rather outrageous to me at first, I was very impressed by the book/article and now think it most likely.
God bless you both
Johnny - I have to admit the “not on your nelly” comment caught my eye more than over simplification - ha ha! I’ve studied in England and worked there I really enjoyed it.
Jason - Thanks for the link!
Sonia - Thanks for the book titles. I will look them up.
Sometimes involving texts apparently against EU turning out, in context, to be strongly in favor of it! But it isn’t as though New Testament texts involving hopeless punishment are exactly rare. (Nor are apparently hopeless punishment texts exactly rare in the OT, although ECT per se seems rare.)