This is an excerpt from Winchester’s sermon to his fellow Baptist Universalists, “Outcasts Comforted”. This expresses much of what I myself found in the Southern Baptist Convention (and still do!) before I became a Christian universalist; and I have said as much as this myself elsewhere (while also drawing comparisons with how in trinitarianism we incorporate important doctrinal sets held by both modalists and unitarians).
But Winchester puts it very well, and it’s a rare sermon (perhaps only currently found in surviving copies of his biography), so:
very true. it’s only in the “tacked on” doctrines of eternal damnation that one finds all this dissension.
remove damnation and both free will and predestination work just fine together.
Take the most vile philosophy on earth, publish only the better half of what it promotes, Stick ones head firmly in the sand (or some other dark recess) and ‘Lo and Behold’ everything’s Hunky-Dori! Whoopee.
Lets try this one:
They banned vivisection -very good!
They promoted animal conservation - how nice!
They started an anti-tobacco movement - my heroes!
They created one of the largest public welfare programs in history - how caring!
They made tremendous progress in science and medicine - how clever!
I could go on and no doubt Jason, by his own argument, would welcome them as bedfellows here so that they could promote their ideology - after all, their beliefs are so similar to ours aren’t they?
Aren’t they?
Well, I hope not.
They are The National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi party)
Have you actually bothered to read Wesley’s sermon Jason? And is this the slap in the face that great man of God gets?
because their god only loves a tiny fraction of humanity - nice
-which is this same tiny minority - to hell with everybody else - blasphemy!
and their god has willed-even created for the express purpose of being tormented in hell for his good pleasure and glory.
and his mind is cruel and capricious taking pleasure in the suffering of his own creatures.
Could but doesn’t want to because he hates the vast majority of humankind.
and yet is deliberately and cruelly withheld from almost all.
But the Father gives him a paltry number preferring to keep the vast majority for himself so that he can enjoy the BBQ
Thank you for laying their hideous doctrine out so clearly Jason. It certainly needs to be repeated and repeated until every single soul sees how clearly it runs against the Spirit of Christ. Is there anyone who dare not call their doctrine the spirit of anti-christ?
If I thought everything was hunky-dori with Calvinism, Pilgrim, I’d be a Calvinist. Instead of critiquing them where I think they’re off base.
Your subsequent list involves trivial positions compared to the theological positions Winchester mentioned in his sermon (and which I agree with), which could be multiplied further.
Again, Calvinist theology is much closer to Christian universalist theology than the theological doctrines (such as they were) of the Nazi party. This site wasn’t created for the purpose of debating with Nazi racial paganism or for the purpose of debating with Satanists for that matter. So our criteria for welcoming people here as friends and fellow believers to discuss our differences of belief, is rather more in-depth than that.
But if you disapprove of this site welcoming Calvinists here to debate us soberly and politely on their beliefs, then there is a very easy solution which will help you quickly feel a lot better.
You can leave. No one is making you stay.
(Although if you disagree so strongly with the purpose of the site, and insist on sticking around to misrepresent the goals and methods of the site leaders, someone may make you leave for a while.)
I recall him saying some things in that sermon about soberly debating things with Calvinists and how he regards some of them as better Christians than himself, and that he himself shouldn’t dispute with them like a prize-fighter. I recall him being much gentler with the Calvinists in that sermon than you have been in recent days (and even somewhat gentler than I myself have occasionally been); and expressly warning his sympathetic readers even in his strongest portion of that sermon (on how particular Calvinist doctrines lead to blasphemy against God), that their attitude toward those they regard as blaspheming in such a fashion should be one of confirming their love towards them the more and praying “Father forgive them they know not what they do”.
But as to slapping Wesley in the face, I could critique him with equal effect as I could the Calvinists, and in fact I do critique both equally although in different ways (also in some overlapping ways). Each portion of Winchester’s semon can also be read, not only as agreement with Calvs and Arms, but also as critique of each, for as Kaths agree with each where stated, Kaths also agree with each against each other (insofar as the two sides principally differ) as stated. If I put my mind to it, I could even write a sermon mirroring the one you’re referencing (which for the convenience of site readers I will link to here but with Arminianism as the target, concluding with Arminian blasphemies.
At any rate, if John Wesley was a friend of Elhanan Winchester, then I doubt John Wesley would regard posting a sermon excerpt where Winchester spells out where universalists agree with both Arminians and Calvinists (and implicitly where we disagree with both Arminians and Calvinists, insofar as they disagree with each other over these things), as being a slap in his face. No moreso than posting an Arminian sermon would be regarded as a slap in the face of Winchester (or any other universalist).
But again, if you would prefer the leadership to allow Arminian theology to be bedfellowed and promoted here and not Calvinists, you’re welcome any time to go find somewhere else that will do so, or to create your own board where you can promote Arminian theology and hate on Calvinist theology as much as you like.
What I have difficulty with is how you can close your eyes to the evil it has perpetrated in this world.
I disagree but then again, I happen to believe that Calvinism is evil and has done immeasurable damage to the cause of Christ whilst you don’t. I just find it impossible to understand how the concept of a capricious sadistic god seems to lie so easily with some of my christian brothers and sisters.
I don’t disapprove of debate with anyone. A strong exchange of views quite often reveals what is in the heart.
Thank you Jason.
If that is your ‘farewell’, it matches quite nicely the welcome you gave me.
Dude, you guys seriously need to stop fighting. I can see it from both sides, but sheesh.
Though this is coming from a guy who has some anger and pride issues just as much as the next guy.
Hoping and praying that you guys can forgive each other and reconcile with each other and come to an understanding and learn to love and respect each other more somehow and remember that we’re all messed up and need God’s help and God’s grace, and in that all people, no matter how enlightened or how deluded they may be, in their beliefs or attitudes or theology or whatever, are really all on the same page.
May Jesus be our peace, the One who breaks the walls of hostility.
Thank you Matt for a welcome post.
I realise that I have said some unloving things towards Jason, my brother in Christ, and I regret that. It was wrong of me.
God bless you.
I don’t close my eyes to it when I’m critiquing them, and some portions of their concept of God don’t lie easily with me (or I wouldn’t critique it). Some portions of their concept of God not only lie easily with me but I accept those concepts over against the opposing Arminian positions (and vice versa), just like any universalist logically does (whether the universalist realizes it or not, or wants to admit it or not.)
I can be very testy about and to Calvinists myself (for all practical purposes I said Steve Hays was worshiping Moloch during our discussion here, after he provoked me); but there can be no evangelical apologetic (only a mere preaching to the choir) without proceeding on identified commonly shared ground, which has always been my line of approach, whether in doing Christian apologetics to non-Christians, or doing soteriological apologetics to fellow Christians. That is also the purpose of the site creators, which is why they invited me here as a guest author and administrator, and which is why I go far out of my way to find and concentrate on what we agree to believe as well as what we disagree about: a policy I apply to Arminians as well as to Calvinists.
Would that be more of a challenge for me if I had been personally terrorized spiritually by Calvinists or Arminians? (And having grown up and lived among more Arminians than Calvinists, I have seen spiritual terrorism from Arminian theology, too.) Certainly. But I would still believe it was the right thing to do, even if I had more difficulty doing so.
Granted!–what you clearly disapprove of is the “soberly and politely” part.
But that’s the kind of forum the site creators wanted, and which they appointed administrators and moderators (and invited guest authors) to help them create and sustain. We start with what we agree on, and keep those principles in mind, and proceed to our disagreements thereby and on the ground of what we agree on, without ever forgetting or trivializing or disparaging what we agree on, not only out of charity and fairness to the opposition (although that would be important enough in itself), but because it would undermine the ground of our own disagreements to disparage where we do agree.
If you don’t want to help us with that because you’re hurting too much in your heart thanks to being mistreated by some of our opponents, I really can understand and even sympathize. But that’s what this forum, and membership in this forum, involves.
We would rather you helped us with that. But if you believe it’s intellectually and (even more importantly) ethically wrong to be in membership with us on that, then you don’t have to be a member of the forum.
I actually agree with Pilgrim’s critiques in principle back up at his comment here, and had he not jumped the gun (which in itself I certainly don’t mind) I would have gotten around to using the list from Winchester’s sermon to illustrate where we disagree with Calvinists and Arminians by comparing where we agree with them.
Since he has already quite thoroughly covered the Calv critiques I would have mentioned (though more virulently than I would have done), I’ll cover the Arm critiques next.
I don’t know if you can believe this, but I truly am sorry if what is upsetting you about me (and the site creators and other leaders) is that we regard Calvinists as well as Arminians as being our brothers in Christ, just as I regard you as my brother in Christ. For what it’s worth, most Arms and Calvs get just as upset with me that I regard people like Paidion and Aaron Reynolds (who are not trinitarians) as being my brothers in Christ, too.
I can understand and respect why you’d be upset with me for treating Calvinists as brothers in Christ, and so therefore going out of my way to respect their theology as much as I can despite my disagreements with it (because brothers do that for each other). But please understand that this is the purpose of this forum, to treat Calvinists and Arminians both as being our brothers in Christ. Even when they tick us off so much we lapse into uncivility to them, as I myself occasionally do.
We aren’t going to stop doing our best to treat Calvinists (and Arminians) as our brothers in Christ. If you don’t believe they are really brothers, or that if they are brothers we should (out of love for them as brothers) acknowledge what they get importantly right as well as criticize them on what we believe they get importantly wrong, then you’re never going to be very happy here. And that’s understandable, and I can respect why you couldn’t be happy here whenever we’re respecting Calvinists (not only universalists and Arminians) as our brothers in Christ.
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I would want to champion that fair-togetherness based on the Unconditional and Universal Love of God. That is why I believe it is essential that one must post The Whole Truth, not just part truths (cf the serpent in Eden) when it comes to the doctrine of Calvinism.
As I have said before, you have made your feelings quite plain Jason
I’m glad to see the tension in this thread being resolved in a loving spirit. My thanks to all concerned.
Can I make two comments?
First, Paul seemed quite happy to quote Greek poets in his sermons, though I dare say he disagreed profoundly with most of their beliefs.
Second, I think the Calvinist and Arminian concepts of God, taken to their logical conclusions, are both monstrous. However, I don’t know too many monstrous Calvinists or Arminians, or at least, no more monstrous than the rest of us. Most seem to be perfectly ordinary people making the best of things. I think the good God reveals himself to our hearts more truly than to our heads. This is certainly true of other relationships. Suppose I wrote a “spouseology” that attempted systematically to describe my wife. How well would that communicate what I know in my heart to be true of her? Yet this is what we attempt to do for God. (We Christians should write less theology and more poetry, more music, more art.)
Jason: I totally understand where you’re coming from, bro, and I agree with what you’re saying about the aim of this site, and I’m all for it even though, like you humbly admit doing yourself, I get upset with the opposition sometimes.
Pilgrim: Bro… I think Jason has been as clear as he could be about what this site is all about, and it does make sense (after all, isn’t loving your neighbor [that is, at the very least, treating them with some measure of respect and actually caring about them to some extent] the ideal no matter what environment you’re in, and isn’t finding common ground first before moving into debate a good way to do that?), and I think he is trying to be gracious about all of this, and sympathetic to where you’re coming from, is trying to work things out with you, and make peace, in his way.
And if he’s still waffling on some stuff, like you think he is, then try to cut him slack, man, he’s only human.
None of us are perfect, or 100% perfect and cogent in our thinking (and this statement most definitely includes me).
And just to throw this in, I think in some sense all people are our brothers and our sisters, because we’ve all been made in God’s image, and so everyone deserves our respect and our kindness at least on some level, no matter how terrible or messed up they may be, in their thoughts or their actions, for that reason alone.
(And on a side-note, I know that Jesus got tough with the Pharisees and Sadducees at times, like you’ve pointed out to Jason, which is very true, to be sure, we can’t and shouldn’t deny that, but maybe there’s a place and a time for that… we’ve gotta remember that Jesus didn’t talk to them that way all of the time, and often I think He did it more in defense of and for the sake of others, for those who the Pharisees and Sadducees were harming through their attitudes and actions, then anything else…
He often shared meals with these guys, and in Jewish culture that was basically a sign of friendship or at least goodwill between parties… maybe the Pharisees didn’t take that sentiment seriously, but I’m sure Jesus did…
Jesus loved His enemies, after all, though that sometimes entailed being honest, if not brutally honest, with them…
I agree that sometimes love involves rebuking those who are deeply wrong about something, especially something that could be damaging to others if they spread it around, but it also involves respect and kindness…
Of course Jesus was the only one who has ever had a perfect balance in this… and that’s another thing…
Unlike Jesus, we all have a tendency to foul things up at times, and this can often happen when we start rebuking people… we just aren’t gonna be as good at it or as balanced in our approach as Jesus was… in other words, we should try to be careful about it…
sorry for the long side-note, I’m rambling )
Or, especially in the case of those who call themselves ‘Christian’, like Paul said: ‘Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.’
Of course, that is far easier said then done, loving our enemies is very hard, for instance, but it’s something worth pursuing, and praying about, that God would help us to live and love like that.
Blessings to you bro, and hopefully all of us can keep the peace here.
I can see it from both sides, but sheesh. 
