The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Faith

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#121

[size=110]Jesus said, “Who do people say that I am?”

His disciples replied, “Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elijah or another of the prophets.”

Jesus replied, “But who do you say that I am?”

Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as his rationality and then, by an act of his will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only because Scripture speaks of a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple.”

And Jesus answered, saying, “Huh?”[/size]

#122

Paidon, Paidon, I hope you are not avoiding our earlier more important point. You seemed to be saying earlier that it did not matter what one believes about the nature of Christ or the Holy Spirit’s identity as long as one obeyed them or at least followed their ideals.

Actually my natural self is crucified with Christ so that I, my natural self, no longer lives, but Christ lives in me, Galatians 2:20. So my unregenerate nature which hated Christ died when I became a Christian and now super natural love grows.

#123

LOL Right on.

#124

This is the unconvincing elasticity of your evangelicalism… you endlessly shift the goal posts to suit when the religious-talk doesn’t add up, as in, THIS is what you said…

Now conveniently the real you no longer exists?? :unamused:

#125

Supernatural love grows by relationship. Knowedge puffs up, love edifies. If I understand all mysteries and have not love I am as a clanging cymbal.

The question you ask (so typical of orthodox Trinitarianism) assunes that there can be no other true interpretation of the scriptures concerning the nature of Christ and the identity of the Holy Spirit than the one you believe.

What if you are in error? Would this mean you are unsaved? Would this disqualify all the work the Lord has done in your life thus far?

Is it possible to have an understanding of the nature of Christ and the identity of Christ that is different than yours and just as, or more- correct?

Is it possible that what is acceptable to God in those understandings is more generous than the typical Trintarian soteriology?

Well of course it is- No man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is my Lord and my Savior. I am washed in His blood, renewed by the Holy Spirit and illumined by His word- yet I do not see the Deity in the same way as you do.

I have been a believer for forty two years. I have been blessed to lead many souls to Him.

The question is a shallow one. Does it matter what one believes about the nature of Jesus Christ and the identity of the Holy Spirit? Of course. Does that mean everyone must see it as you do, or as the Roman Catholic Church does, in order to be in a relationship with Him?

Of course not.

#126

A most excellent post!!! Succinctly put, I say!!

#127

In whatever sense Paul understood that there was both a dead natural man that still lived in him as well as a transformed new man that had taken over, then I am with Paul. For Paul said, Romans 7:17, “So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.”

I see you guys have now taken to mocking me and my Christian faith.

#128

I was just going to edit my post, as it probably gave the impression I was teaming up against you or something - which is far from the truth. I was applauding because Eaglesway had put succinctly what I was trying to say.
But there is nothing personal here Jeff - you are articulate and intelligent and I think good-natured about the thread. It is not, I hope, about an us-vs-you thing here at all.
I’ll try to be more temperate, brother.

#129

Certainly no mocking here Jeff. Disagreement perhaps, but no disrespect intended, and sincere apologies offerred if I have offended. :slight_smile:

#130

But how can you claim such certainty for your own position of that which you say “In whatever sense Paul understood that…” – you cannot claim “Paul” when you don’t grasp his understanding… surely you are attaching YOUR understanding and simply claiming such to be Paul’s???

No… don’t deflect robust enquiry in the name of mockery, that is just avoidance, IMO.

#131

The Bible describes the Spirit of God in many different ways or speaks of God as if He is composed of many separate “Spirits”. The following are just a few examples.
Revelation 5:6 “And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creature, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.”
John 16:13 “However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you in all truth.”
Ephesians 1:17 “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.”
Hebrews 10:29 " Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing , and insulted the Spirit of grace?"
Isaiah 11:2 “The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.”
Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication.”
Proverbs 8:22 “The Lord possessed me (wisdom) at the beginning of His way.”

The problem I have with the Trinitarian theory is that many who believe in it will say, that if you don’t believe that God is three separate “Persons” or Spirits in one, then you are denying God. To me, this is the same as saying that if you don’t believe that wisdom, truth, grace, etc., are all separate “Persons” or “Spirits” of God, each with their own identities, then you are also denying God.

#132

Thanks for the continued discussion and words above.

I may have to drop out of some of the detail, but want to bring to conversation back to the purpose of this post. I am the recruitment officer for an organization seeking to 1) advance the good news of the final victory of grace for all mankind, 2) recruit ambassadors to respectfully appeal both within and without Christendom, and 3) develop a brief and Biblical statement of faith. So the purpose of this post was to get comment on a proposed statement of faith and make revision as persuaded. I have already made revision in the past from thoughtful comments.

The proposed statement does not mentioned the word Trinity, but does mention God in three persons. While I appreciate the recent discussion, that expression in the proposed statement is not going to change. I must confess I’ve found it difficult to follow all the objections from the recent discussion. Frankly, I not sure you would all agree exactly with one another. I think the recent points I have made could be briefly summarized as…

  1. That Christian faith includes both agreement to facts about who God is as well as love, obedience, and worship for God.
  2. That since Christ is worshiped as God that He both equal with God and a distinct conversational person within the Godhead.
  3. That those denying that Christ is very God are not Christians (though if interested in following him they are on a good path).
  4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct from both the Father and the Son, but that he may overlook misunderstandings about his identity.
  5. That Trinitarianism itself can be idolatrous, but not always, and parting ways with the terminology seems argumentative and loses a great audience.

I think the recent activity on this post has been offended or objects to one or more of these statements. Well we may need to agree to disagree because nothing said thus far is changing my opinion on any of the five points above. Though I am always open to further discussion. Yet I would hate to get in a ‘fist fight’ that makes it more difficult to be great friends when the Holy Spirit finally persuades us all, whether in this life or when we see Christ face to face… for there will be no disagreement then!

Anyway here is the current status of my proposed statement for anyone that doesn’t have the time to read through the entire post…

===

  1. In one true God, existing eternally as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, John 14:9-21, who is in essence spirit, John 4:24, light, 1 John 1:5, and love, 1 John 4:8.

  2. That the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments are the unique, inerrant, inspired Word of God in the original autographs, and the final authority in all matters of faith and conduct, 2 Tim 3:16.

  3. In the sovereignty and active rule of God in creation, the fall, history, revelation, redemption, and final judgment, Romans 8:20-21.

  4. That man was created by God in His image, but that since Adam’s fall, all men are sinful and by nature objects deserving of God’s wrath, Ephesians 2:3.

  5. That Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, fully human and fully divine, eternally existing as God, yet born in time of a virgin, and that He lived a sinless and perfect life, 2 Timothy 2:5.

  6. In the historic death of Jesus as the full and only atonement, guaranteeing loving forgiveness for the sins of all mankind, in His bodily resurrection from the dead, and in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, 1 John 2:1-2.

  7. That all mankind is justified by the loving grace of God and redeemed on the basis of the death of Christ alone, which is received through faith alone, Ephesians 2:8-9.

  8. That the Holy Spirit is the effective agent in regeneration, bringing individuals to faith and transformed lives, 2 Corinthians 3:18.

  9. In one invisible, universal church, the Body of Christ, to which all true believers belong, and in local churches accountable to God, governed by officers with the authority to rule in matters of belief and discipline, Hebrews 13:17.

  10. That believing mankind is rewarded in paradise after death, while unbelievers suffer punishment in Hades after death merited by their sinful nature and their rejection of the grace of Christ, Luke 16:19-31.

  11. In the future, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory, Titus 2:13.

  12. In the final resurrection of redeemed mankind to the enjoyment of God forever, and the damnation of those excluded from the Book of Life to the Lake of Fire prepared for the Devil and his angels for the ages of the ages, Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:10.

#133

Just a thought for future conversation’s sake… it may have been useful to have stated the above in your very first entry as the means for why you were bringing up the topic etc.

#134

Jeff said:

Hi Jeff, I think that being on this (and other) forums is not necessarily to persuade another poster (?) but for all those who are seeking and may not have heard other viewpoints or may be on the fence about an issue. Many read and do not post. Your view has been seen by many I would say. And then they read folks who are opposed to your view. And I agree with you, when we see Christ, there will be no disagreement. But the rub is in what we are between now and then :smiley:

The problem with statements of faith is that you can paint yourself into a corner, and if ego isn’t in check, pride will take over and no amount of persuasion will chink the armor. If you have something worth while to say, why do you need to predicate it with saying what you do or don’t believe? Could a fluctuating statement of faith may be worse that none at all?

Just wondering.

Have a good one!

Chad

#135

For me, saying that Jesus is God but not the Father(God) and the Holy Spirit is also God but not the Father (God) is a statement that leads to a lot of confusion. It seems like one who can’t make up his mind as to who God is. I would say that if a person believes that Jesus is God, then He should be followed and worshipped as He showed us how to do. If one believes Jesus was a just a man who followed and worshipped the one true God, and we follow His example and do the same, then I suppose that this would lead us to the same place

#136

LLC - I appreciate your comments.
I take a position between “Jesus is God” and “Jesus is just a man”. That position is that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, (not God the Son), but as a fully human being with one, human nature, with a unique relationship to the Father, and in fact was the long-promised Messiah whom God has exalted as Lord, and who is the express image of the Father’s wisdom and glory. As such he is worthy to be worshiped - BUT we do not worship him as God.

Of course - we do worship Jesus, and the Father through Him, and will worship him forever as Lord and Elder Brother, the mediator between His Father and ours (who is the only true God).

#137

I’m not sure how this fits into a statement of faith. but I found it interesting. What does everyone think :question: :

#138

Beats me, but I guess it’s more interesting than my post! Fits into this thread somehow?

#139

Of, course. It’s what led the black Christian speaker, to his beliefs and statement of faith :exclamation: :smiley:

#140

Okey-dokey!