"You must do nothing to come to Jesus" vs "This is what you must do now"


#323

This should be on the ‘Unqualified President’ thread., but yes, I’m familiar with the desire to be able to take on the gov’t’s armed forces and law enforcement personnel if they do bad things.

If that’s what the founders meant by having a militia, it’s too bad Rome’s gov’t didn’t have a 2nd amendment. Then the disciples might have derailed their evil attempt to crucify Jesus.


#324

Bob, Matthew 12:14 says, “But the Pharisees went out and conspired to kill Jesus.
Mark 3:6 Then the Pharisees went forth and began to plot with the Herodians to kill Jesus.
John 11:53 So from that day on they plotted to kill Him.
Matthew 26:4 And they conspired to arrest Jesus and kill Him covertly.”

Plot- A plan made in secret to do something illegal or harmful.
Conspire-Make secret plans to commit an unlawful or harmful act.
Covert-secretly

Again, Yes these people knew what they were doing. They knew that they were not obeying the Laws of God. Jesus was exposing them and convicting them of their sin, and so they had to do away with Him.
Do not cheat, lie, bear false witness, covet, murder etc.etc. Love others as yourself
These things are not hard to understand.

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice faith and mercy.”
Matt. 23:25 'Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of extortion and self-indulgence."
Matt.23:14 " Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widow’s houses, and for a pretense make long prayers."

It doesn’t sound like Jesus is loving these people. In fact, He seems to be cursing them here in Matt. 23:32-33 “Fill up then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?”
Matt.23:


#325

[quote=“LLC, post:324, topic:13931, full:true”]Matthew 23:23

(1) Bob, Matthew 12:14 says, “But the Pharisees went out and conspired to kill Jesus.”
These people knew what they were doing. They knew that they were not obeying the Laws of God.

(2) Matt.23:14 " Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widow’s houses."
[/quote]

It doesn’t sound like Jesus is loving these people. In fact, “Brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?” Matt.23
[/quote]

LLC, On your first argument, I see you offer no evidence here that the Pharisees recognized (“knew”) that plotting the death of one they saw as a false prophet did not fulfill the Law of God. Not any more than Paul had recognized that plotting Christians’ deaths was contrary to righteous “zeal for God.” As he spells out, such actions were “ignorant.” You underestimate how deceptive evil can be.

I think your second contention that Jesus violated his own teaching to love evil enemies reveals how you see him, but misunderstands agape. You cite how Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their evil and strongly warned them of the painful consequences of their deeds. I would think genuine love for them would demand no less than the great risk of confronting their disastrous course and seeking to sober them about what their deep evil is sowing.

I believe Jesus reflects the nature of God which as the apostle John says, always “IS love.”


#326

Like I said,I’m not sure the intended post ended in the intended place… But having said that and in the spirit of moving ahead, I am interested in your comment, as societies and culture advance, it is obvious that the roman citizenry could have nothing like modern day fire arms… Thus the progression of technology and your quite insightful observation is well taken. But a free people need to have a force, and the individual ownership of firearms makes them a threat to tyranny, and unfortunately for liberals, it is the second amendment that in the end messes up their program.


#327

Do not murder.
Do not bear false witness.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Love the stranger
If your enemy is hungry give him food and if he is thirsty give him water to drink.
Care for the poor, the sick, the fatherless and the widow
Do not take a bribe.
Do not pervert justice.
Do not oppress a stranger.
Do not hold a grudge or seek vengeance on people.
" The Lord is compassionate and gracious slow to anger and abounding in love."
“The Lord is good to all and His mercy is over all that the has made.”
“The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end.”

Matt. 15:3 “Why do you also disregard the commandment of God because of your tradition?
Mark 7:9 " You have disregarded the commandments of God to keep the traditions of men.”
" You neglect the more important matters of the Law such as justice, mercy and faith."
Neglect- shirk, evade, abandon,
Disregard- ignore, refuse to obey, pay no attention to

Bob, The Pharisees were not ignorant. They were not fulfilling any of the things I stated above.

Love- to delight in, adore, take pleasure in, admire, show reverence, glorify, enjoy.
Jesus did not hate His enemies or seek to take vengeance on them, but I don’t see Him showing any of these things towards the Pharisees and Sadducees.


#328

“I am interested in your comment, as societies advance, it is obvious that Rome’s citizenry could have nothing like modern day fire arms… Thus in the progression of technology… a free people need to have a force, and the individual ownership of firearms makes them a threat to tyranny.”

Yes, I’d comment that modern tyrants often have powerful technology, and that some individual ‘firearms’ seem unlikely to defeat their powerful armaments. Thus today we need an amendment for the universal right to own nukes to deter tyranny.

Yet I sympathize with how Trump gently praises the love letters and character of many of today’s most tyrannical thugs. After all folk like Kim and Putin also have nukes, and even our superior arsenal has difficulty safely deterring their gulags and tyranny :wink:


#329

LLC, you haven’t challenged my contention. Every scholar who sees the Pharisees as self-righteous religionists who rationalized killing Jesus as a false prophet agrees with you that they deeply violated justice. That does not show that they knew this execution was evil.

Many blind sinners “disregard” what you and I see as obviously plain. That’s why a devout Pharisee, Paul, can say that he was “ignorant” that his slaughter of Christians was not actually righteous.

Second, I argued that Jesus’ confrontations with the Pharisees’ evil, and harshly warning them of its’ consequences can be a sobering expression of love. You rebut that Jesus can’t love them, because agape love requires that Jesus “glorify” them, “admire” them, etc. I don’t know what lexicon suggests that, but it’s nonsense, and strikes me as a sentimentalist weak notion of what agape actually means.

Agape can be tough love. His command “agape your enemies” is not: we love & enjoy what they do.


#330

Bob, it is obvious that the second amendment is a sore spot. Let’s look for example past the Trump administration…The idea that free people will remain free is (as you will have to concede) totally effective only if the populace has a ability to have the right of stating grievance… And that can only be done by a armed people.:wink:


#331

Not in my experience. People in my family have the right to state grievances, and none of them are armed. People in many European democracies have stated grievances and changed gov’ts over and over, despite not having an armed people.

Shucks, in Britain even cops seldom are armed. But trust me, their gov’t has plenty of arms to put down a violent internal insurrection, just as the U.S. military will put down any citizens militia here that tries to overthrow our gov’t.

What you may mean is that you feel that your gun is what keeps our gov’t in check, and you secure from tyranny. While I think the president is tempted to expand his powers, I don’t worry about it, nor have any inclination to shoot people over it.


#332

Bob, I believe have. Cunning and ignorant are two different things. If they hadn’t known that His execution was evil they wouldn’t have been plotting and conspiring in secret. If they didn’t know that they weren’t feeding the poor, executing justice taking care of the sick and the widows etc. then the fact that people were starving and sick etc.etc may have been a clue? And if they were ignorant enough to not have noticed this, Jesus informed them. So I’d say they no longer had an excuse at that point.

The Bible tells us to love God, which involves glorifying and admiring. You said the Bible tells us to love our enemies.


#333

I’m lost. You appear to be insisting that we are commanded to glorify evil people?? Yes, Jesus insists, “Love your enemies.” Are you claiming this meant we are required to glorify and admire evil people? Sure, we worship God. What makes you think evil people are to be worshipped like God? Does anyone (you?) seriously believe that is what Jesus’ agape command meant?? I’ve never heard such a definition of it.

You also insist that the Pharisees plotting in secret to have Jesus killed proves they knew it was evil. I find that irrational. The narrative presents Jesus as highly popular with the common people, and the Pharisees as fearful of the pushback they will face if they publicly seek his death. So of course, they strategize behind the scenes, rather than in public. This does not falsify Jesus’ insight that “they know not what they do.”

Do you similarly think that when Paul says he was “ignorant” that murdering Christians was not actually righteous, and that this is why God had mercy on him, that Paul is also deceived about such ignorance?


#334

If you recall, I said loving your enemies means

But, you insisted that I was changing the definition of love. Now you change the definition of love as well. No we are not to love the enemy in the same way we love God. Nor would it be the same love that you would have for a friend or someone you hold close to your heart. Jesus wasn’t washing the Pharisees’ feet.To me it is just an all around general sort of love, whether you call it agape or whatever.

All people are not ignorant. Some know what they’re doing, some may not.Whether or not these Pharisees and Sadducees knew that murder was wrong, or that they were to love others as themselves etc., Jesus educated them on the matter, so they no longer had an excuse. As Hebrews 10:26 says, “For if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin.”

You can keep insisting that these Pharisees didn’t know what they were doing. But it doesn’t matter. If one doesn’t know the duties of a man of God or simply refuses to comply then he/she does not qualify for and should not be the head of the church, and this is why they were kicked out.


#335

Well, yes an armed citizenry does indeed help to keep a tyrannical government at bay… Your inclination to say that because we want a right to keep and bear arms that some how people are going to shoot others is a bit over the edge… I know many folks who have firearms and to my understanding, none, none, none, of them have ever used a firearm in a illegal way.


#336

LLC, Heavens, it’s fun to spar with you, but I surely didn’t argue that Pharisees should head the church. Rather that they were deeply deceived and unqualified by the way they read the Levitical law!

I differ that ignorance has to annul the possibility of ministry. Paul confesses that as a Pharisee, he was “ignorant” in believing that his murders of Christians were righteous. But that God had mercy on such ignorance and qualified him to be an apostle of the church.

More central, I agree that love is expressed in differing ways. My objection began when you asserted, "Jesus was not saying to love your enemies.” I cited Matt. 5:43 that He DID say those very words, and spelled out that by agape he meant to seek and do good toward someone (and later added that Jesus never defines it as “admiring” what they do).

If after much objection, you are now agreeing that Jesus WAS saying to “love your enemies,” and in the sense in which he spells it out, I salute you. We agree :slight_smile:


#337

Well, I’m glad your area is so tame. I observe that America’s rate of people shooting others is far higher than other first world nations who have more reasonable restrictions.


#338

Bob, likewise.:slightly_smiling_face:

Yes, willful disobedience and ignorance are two different things. But neither will permanently disqualify a person from the ministry. What is required, is a return to God, as He says, “Return to me and I will return to you.” The duties of a man of God are not to perform rituals, animal sacrifices, etc.etc. but to be a man of truth just as Moses, the prophets, and Jesus said in the Bible.

Yes.:slightly_smiling_face:


#339

Thanks LLC. I’m glad you are here to challenge views many of us may take for granted. Even when I’m not persuaded, I like your style :slight_smile:


#340

Ditto Bob.:slightly_smiling_face:
The way I see it, loving others as ourselves has always been the way. It was declared in the beginning " So God made man in His own image and said “be fruitful…”. It has been proclaimed throughout all the ages and cannot be changed or altered. Whether we are willfully disobedient or ignorant of it, it’s all the same. This is the portion which “goes through the fire”, meaning failure/ correction, until we learn to follow the one true way. As it is said, this road is wider than the one less traveled, but I believe we will all return to God in the end.


#341

Yes, I too see Love and the Golden Rule as eternally the way, and that this cannot be altered. Though the reason I’m convinced of that is not because it’s written in some external authority that this is the unchanging way. What convinces me more is that I know this (subjectively) deep inside, what some would call the witness of the Spirit, conscience & reason, and so when I read that, I find it true.

Indeed, I’d argue that many Bible passages don’t sound as if this is the way at all, and that the emphasis that everything hangs on the great commandment is much more regular and emphatic in the New Testament, post-Jesus. Where we’ve conflicted is when we argue what specific texts are saying, and you sound as if you’re arguing that the Bible uniformly supports your beliefs and conclusions. Thus it has been helpful to have you acknowledge that you reject what some texts advocate as bogus.

Our take on some particular texts, and the way that you and I select which Biblical texts and ideas are the enduring way may differ. Nonetheless, we appear to often come to the same conclusions about what the main and enduring ideas are.


#342

Bummer… Now that you two are done, I guess I won’t be the owner of the longest forum thread in the history of the internet. Oh well, I almost made it!