Yepper Bob, all things were fulfilled in Christ, done, sealed and delivered. Don’t give a wink to flesh or spirit, or how you will figure it out, But the father has opened the gates. And we are now able to understand.
Yeppers, I gotta stop flirting with figuring out that Paul guy
What’d Paul know anyway? We live 2K years in the future, we don’t even need the bible. We’re advanced and Jesus is on R and R.
Everything is ok, no responsibility necessary, no work, no trying to change - why change?
Hmm… you should maybe read up more on Paul’s concerns with the Judaisers of the early church — start with Galatians and check out Acts; further, consider John’s antichrists… all believers in rebellion.
There was likewise ‘the great falling away’ of whom the writer of Hebrews exhorts believers in no uncertain terms not be as… “those who draw back to perdition”, or consider Peter’s… “a dog returns to its own vomit” etc — apostasy. One cannot be an apostate from what one has not already been a part thereof.
Do you believe the OT example as outlined previously where ALL regardless of station were brought out BUT not all necessarily went in, and yet ALL TOGETHER were in fact delivered out of said bondage
Yes I understand your standard fundamentalist reading… verse 3 however shows how what was met in Christ had the effect of doing the same for said believers. Their own walking according to the Spirit was not what established or met this requirement; Christ did that in removing, by own sacrifice, that which the law could not…
Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us — who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Thus we have…
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
IOW… Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, NOT us… the beneficiaries realising this however being… everyone who believes.
Well in actuality ANYONE who practices… “love thy neighbour” fulfils the entire law, i.e., the spirit thereof, not just those who profess faith in Christ, as per Rom 13:9c-10; 2:14-15.
Thanks for clarifying. On point one, I agree churchmen can be dismal and can fall away from grace as apostates. But I would not define Paul’s view of the “norm” for life in Christ by pointing to heretics and apostates that he damns. I’d refer to his exposition for what he holds to be ‘normative’ with faith in Christ.
On Romans 8:4, I agree that Christ (not us) puts an end to the OT law for righteousness, that He is the one who condemns the sin in our flesh, and the one is able to do what we left to our weak flesh cannot, and thus has “the effect” by his Spirit’s work for believers of having the law’s requirement (which I agree with you was love) be “met” (or “fulfilled”) in us.
But I don’t see why you say vs. 3 says that Christ is the one who “met this requirement” by his own sacrifice, and thus that our “walking according to the Spirit is not meeting this requirement.” Where does vs. 3 say that the cross in itself already met God’s pursuit and requirement of a righteous people? And how does vs. 3 deny that this righteous requirement for us IS “met in us who live according to the Spirit”? My impression is that vs. 4 spells out that claim, and vs. 3 supports how he accomplishes that.
Fair enough… BUT also to be fair — “norm” was 100% your use not mine — I spoke of “biblical parlance” of which then Paul picked up on in terms of “what WE sow we reap.”
Yep we’re probably talking past each other and I don’t feel like flogging the horse, dead or otherwise — like you mentioned up the page… semantics; not to mention Rom 10:4 which in part pointed to my point that you didn’t get.
I disagree. All who follow the words of Christ put an end to the Levitical law. There are many who still walk according to the words of other gods.
The way I see it, God gave man a spirit when he created us, a spirit of both good and evil. We can either choose to do good and live or choose to do evil and perish.
Thanks for recognizing that our differing semantics can mean we talk past each other, and actually appreciate a lot of what the other affirms. But why do you say I didn’t ‘get’ you claim about Rom 10:4? I specified that “I agree that Christ (not us) puts an end to the OT law for righteousness,” which you will note stood out to LLC, who does not see Jesus bringing any fundamental change to God’s truly announced requirement.
So I think we may be united against LLC’s continuity view. Of course, my own sense shares with her that Jesus teaches that the abiding “righteous requirement” underneath Mosaic law is the law of Christ, being the great commandment of love (I see as fulfilled in us by the work of the crucified Christ’s Spirit). Yet the title here, “you must do nothing to come to Jesus” can sound like that requirement on our end is being denied.
In any event, LOL, when I have you, LLC, and DaveB all from opposing angles accusing me of distorting Scripture and your own positions, I figure I’m an equal opportunity dismayer, who might be getting something right or balanced
Bob, I don’t understand why you ay this. We are exhorted to know our God so that we are not led astray by the false words of another, which is exactly what happened to a lot of the people of Israel. I believe that Moses gave them the words of Christ. However, many turned back to the ways of Egypt and this is what you have in the Levitical law. They are not the words of the God of Israel but the religious practices and laws of another. Jesus was bringing people back to the truth.
This is Paul’s " although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man."
And, “As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool to his folly.”
God’s word has been in the world since day one, " so that none should perish but have everlasting life."
LLC. If you put the keywords “does Judaism believe in everlasting life” …and read through the articles on page 1…you discover that Jews of all branches, don’t necessarily believe in everlasting life. How do you reconcile you statement, with what I have just shared?
For example, look at:
There are 5 different Jewish answers, regarding the afterlife.
Or look at
There is no simple answer: at different times and in different places, Jews had different ideas. These varying thoughts were never reconciled or canonically decided. Thus, even today, Jews believe in different, often irreconcilable, theories of what life after death is like.
Answer: The views of the Jewish people regarding the afterlife vary to some degree. Unlike the Catholic Church, there is no central teaching authority among Jewish people. Thus, in a short answer like this, we cannot fully treat what all Jewish people believe about the particulars of the afterlife
[quote=“LLC, post:71, topic:13931, full:true”]
“Bob, I don’t understand why you say this. We are exhorted to know our God so that we are not led astray by the false words of another, which is exactly what happened to a lot of the people of Israel. I believe that Moses gave them the words of Christ… God’s word has been in the world since day one.”
LLC, What’s confusing? I read your response to actually confirm my understanding from you that “God’s truly announced requirement” was given by Moses, and even from day one, and thus you indeed don’t see that Jesus can bring any fundamental change to God’s true requirement.
Indeed, What I so value is that both you and Davo bring unique insights into texts that do not reflect the familiar clichés, and thus challenge us to think. Of course, with each of you, there are aspects I find right on insights, and others on which I differ, and would be more sympathetic with more traditional interpretations.
Here is one change: Jesus brought life and immortality to light.
I tend to agree with this.
HF, To me, it’s not about life after physical death. It’s about life on earth, being able to raise your children in a good environment and leaving something for them besides a wasteland etc. etc.
Bob, what fundamental change was there? He taught the truth of God, and we are to continue to teach that truth and keep the faith alive. Those who follow are all a part of this. If the disciples had not given their lives to teach of Him, would we even have heard of Jesus? It’s been about two thousand years since His death, and there are millions of Jewish people who still believe in the Levitical law, millions of Muslims who still hold to their own faith, and millions of Christians who still preach things that Jesus didn’t teach, plus all the denominations and other faiths out there. Besides this, people before Jesus were just as capable of doing good or evil as we are today.
DaveB, There were many people before Jesus that believed in an afterlife, ex. the Egyptians. I’d imagine everyone has had thoughts of the afterlife. We still don’t know what happens when we leave this earth. To me, it’s all speculation.
The point is not that other people had ideas of immortality - of course they did, from time immemorial.
The point is that Jesus brought the truth about immortality to ‘light’ - something that did not exist until he came. We know for instance, that God raises humans to life out of death; that we all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, etc.
Since Jesus, we KNOW these things, not fumbling around in the dark as the times before.
DaveB, we don’t know this for sure.
What about Enoch and Elijah?
I don’t try to explain the afterlife because I don’t know. I can imagine all I want to but for me, the truth of the matter will just have to wait until I get there.
LLC, you ask what changes Jesus brought. We’ve debated before New Testament texts replete with the assumption that Jesus brought something better. E.g. in our recent interaction with Davo, we discussed Romans 10:4,5’s perception that Jesus brought an end to Jewish law as the way that one gains righteousness, as well as 8:4’s view that Jesus was sent so that now, “God’s righteous requirements could be met in us who live according to his Spirit.”
In the words of Colossians 1:20, now God was pleased “through Him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”
If the apostles are correct, Jesus’ “ministry is superior” to others because he brings what is “established on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).
Thus, you may be right if you want to argue that things were able to be just as good before Jesus, and that he brought nothing superior, but that does not appear to be the outlook of the New Testament’s apostles. That’s all I’m contending.
Not according to the apostle Paul. Today we have access to the grace of God which ENABLES us to work righteousness and eschew wickedness:
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
How do we appropriate this enabling grace? We appropriate it through faith. Jesus died to provide this enabling grace, and by trusting Him to do so, it becomes a reality in our lives.
Many think “δικαιοσυνη,” The Greek word translated as “justification” to mean “being counted as righteous,” whether we are righteous or not. But the word often means “being made righteous.”
Working together [with Him], we entreat you not to accept the grace of God to no purpose. (2 Cor 6:1)
If we try to accept God’s grace in our lives without allowing it to purify us, to render us righteous, then we are accepting it to no purpose.
We must coöperate with God’s enabling grace. We alone cannot achieve consistent righteousness. And God alone will not cause us to be righteous. He respects our ability to choose too much for that. We must coöperate with God’s enabling grace.
This coöperation with God is known as “synergy.” This English word comes from the Greek word “working together.” (συνεργουντες)
A particular group of denominations push “monergy.” This is the idea God did all the work concerning our righteousness, that we have no part in it at all. No wonder so many fall away, thinking that what they choose to do has no bearing on their standing with God.
However, I think the apostle Paul had it right. Concerning deliverance from wrongdoing, we need to work together with God, and so not to attempt accept the grace of God to no purpose.
And that is also the position, of the Eastern Orthodox church. And by extension, as a prospect - mine also!