1 Tim 2: 4 is one of “our” verses. But I find the English words “desires” or “wants” that most translations seem to use to be a bit weak. Certainly not as strong as the KJV “will have”.
I’m not a fan of the KJV, so don’t really want to quote that version just for this one verse.
YLT has: "who doth will all men to be saved … "
Has anyone looked at the Greek - is the Greek stronger than “desires” and “wants”?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike, I believe the primary meaning of the Greek word"θελω" is “to desire” or “to want”.
However,my online Bible Greek Lexicon includes some other shades of meaning:
Here are some other verses quoted from the NASB which include the word “θελω” (Strongs #2309):
Mt 1:19 and Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting <2309> to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
Mt 2:18 “A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH, WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING, RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN; AND SHE REFUSED <2309> TO BE COMFORTED, BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE.”
Mt 5:40 "if anyone wants <2309> to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Mt 5:42 "give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants <2309> to borrow from you.
Mt 7:12 "in everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want <2309> them to treat you, for this is the law and the prophets.
Mt 8:2 and a leper came to him and bowed down before him, and said, “lord, if you are willing <2309>, you can make me clean.”
Mt 8:3 Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I am <2309> willing <2309>; be cleansed.” and immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Mt 11:14 "and if you are willing <2309> to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
Mt 12:7 "but if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE <2309> COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Mt 12:38 then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, “teacher, we want <2309> to see a sign from you.”
Mt 13:28 "and he said to them, ‘an enemy has done this!’ the slaves *said to him, ‘do you want <2309> us, then, to go and gather them up?’
Mt 14:5 although Herod wanted <2309> to put him to death, he feared the crowd, because they regarded John as a prophet.
Mt 15:28 then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish <2309>.” and her daughter was healed at once.
Mt 15:32 and Jesus called his disciples to him, and said, “I feel compassion for the people, because they have remained with me now three days and have nothing to eat; and I do not want <2309> to send them away hungry, for they might faint on the way.”
Joh 7:17 "if anyone is willing <2309> to do his will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of god or whether I speak from myself.
Joh 7:44 some of them wanted <2309> to seize him, but no one laid hands on him.
Joh 8:44 "you are of your father the devil, and you want <2309> to do the desires of your father. he was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Ac 7:28 ‘YOU DO NOT MEAN <2309> TO KILL ME AS YOU KILLED THE EGYPTIAN YESTERDAY, DO YOU?’
Ac 7:39 "our fathers were unwilling <2309> to be obedient to him, but repudiated him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt,
Ac 10:10 but he became hungry and was desiring <2309> to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;
Ac 14:13 the priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted <2309> to offer sacrifice with the crowds.
Ac 16:3 Paul wanted <2309> this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
Ro 1:13 I do not want <2309> you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.
Ro 7:15 for what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like <2309> to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Ro 9:16 so then it does not depend on the man who wills <2309> or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Ro 9:18 so then he has mercy on whom he desires <2309>, and he hardens whom he desires <2309>.
Ro 9:22 what if God, although willing <2309> to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Ro 11:25 for I do not want <2309> you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
I once did a study on the different “wills” in Scripture. Here is that thread if you’re interested.
I do however think that “thelo” (the Greek word used in 1 Timothy 2:4) is much firmer than I original thought. Not in connection to man’s desire, but God’s. Paul uses “thelo” when saying that God will have compassion on who He wills to have compassion. So in the end if His “desire” (thelo) is for all men be saved, then I can’t see how His desire (as in Romans 9 desire) can be thwarted.
I have found such a statement only in Paul’s writings only in Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
If this is the passage in Paul which you have in mind, then I must directly contradict your statement. For the first "“I will have mercy” and the first “I will have compassion” are future indicatives, and the second (of each) are present subjunctives. The Greek word “θελω” (thelō) does NOT occur anywhere in this verse.
Thanks for your replies.
It looks like the modern translations are pretty accurate and that the KJV’s “will have” is a little strong.
Is that a fair summary?
Thanks,
Mike
Isn’t it logically inconsistent for omniscient and omnipotent God to wish/desire/ will for something that He can’t or won’t achieve?
Cheers S
That being the case then “desires” simply means “intends” i.e., it is His intention that… IOW, He wills it, it happens.
Yes, there are several Old Testament verses that say God accomplishes what He desires.
Psalm 115:3, But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.
Isaiah 55:11, So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
In the Greek version of the Old Testament, The Septuagint, a form of the Greek word for desire appears in both of these verses.
So, there is evidence in the Bible that (1) God desires that all be saved and (2) God accomplishes what he desires.
No. Not if He wishes man of his own free will to be involved in that “something” and man refuses. God will wait for each person to repent and submit no matter how long it takes. God won’t force His will on anyone.
Pardon me Paidon, I meant to quote Romans 9:18 (this is what happens when we try to quote from memory, I should have just checked your list). My point was that these two verses, Romans 9:18 and 1 Timothy 2:4, use the same exact Greek word (thelei). I once pointed this out to a Calvinist (he was trying to make the point that the “will” in 1 Tim. 2:4 was not as firm as other words used for His unchanging purpose). If God hardens or has mercy on whom He desires (thelei) and yet He desires (thelei) all men to be saved to me this has serious implications that no Christian can ignore.
I have to agree with others, while I see that God gives mankind freedom of choice, the inner disposition of the heart (wickedness) makes it where he could never choose otherwise. So it truly is as Paul said, it is NOT up to man, but God whether he causes hardening or shows mercy. In this case the conclusion of Romans 11:32 resonates with me, “He has consigned all to disobedience, so that He might show mercy to all”. I’m sorry if I don’t see much libertarian free will in this, but to the contrary I see mankind is a slave of sin. Then again can anyone make a good case for free will from Scripture? I keep reading philosophical arguments, but personally I would like to see it plainly spelled out in Scripture, with the typical Calvinistic texts interpreted in a way that allows free will.
Awakening, I was wondering how you understand “free will”. Does the phrase mean more to you than simply the ability to choose? I think the entire scripture assumes free will, and perhaps that’s why it is hard to make “a good case” for it. Indeed it is because of the free will of the Ninevites that God changed His mind about bringing disaster to the city. It seems that God’s initial prophecy through Jonah was unconditional:
Jonah began to go into the city, going a day’s journey. And he called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” (Jonah 3:4 ESV)
The prophecy was NOT, “Unless you repent, Ninevah shall be overthrown in forty days.” Although many claim that the prophecy was conditional, there is no evidence from the text that it was. Then we have the following amazing statement:
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it. (Jonah 3:10 ESV)
The Hebrew word translated as “relented” above actually means “regretted”. The Septuagint translation of an earlier Hebrew text into Greek about 300 B.C. uses a Greek word which mean “to change one’s mind”. But either way, if the Ninevites had not had the ability to choose, then God would have known that they would repent, and if that were the case, then why would He have told Jonah to prophecy that their city would be destroyed in 40 days? If God had known, He would have had no regrets, nor would He have changed His mind and NOT brought the disaster whiche HE SAID He would bring to them. If God had known that the Ninevites would repent, and that He would not destroy the city at all, then the prophecy would have been a LIE (But God cannot lie).
In the second century (as well as in the third and fourth centuries), there was a lot of teaching going around, that all of man’s acts were predetermined, but the Christians writers were very strong in opposing this idea, and in affirming man’s free will:
100-165 AD : Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestinated that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.” (First Apology ch.43 )
[About the year 180, Florinus had affirmed that God is the author of sin, which notion was immediately attacked by Irenaeus, who published a discourse entitled: “God, not the Author of Sin.” Florinus’ doctrine reappeared in another form later in Manichaeism, and was always considered to be a dangerous heresy by the early fathers of the church.]
**130-200 AD : Irenaeus **
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God…And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice…If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?” (Against Heresies XXXVII )
**150-190 AD : Athenagoras **
“men…have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless)…”(Embassy for Christians XXIV )
**150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria **
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, book 1, ch.17)
**154-222 AD : Bardaisan of Syria **
“How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation? —if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him…And how in that case, would man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman…they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures.” (Fragments )
**155-225 AD : Tertullian **
“I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God’s image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature.” (Against Marcion, Book II ch.5 )
**185-254 AD : Origin **
“This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition.” (De Principiis, Preface )
**185-254 AD : Origen **
“There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will.” (De Principiis, Book 3, ch.1 )
250-300 AD : Archelaus
“There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he chooses.” (Disputation with Manes, secs.32,33 )
**260-315 AD : Methodius **
“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, discourse 8, chapter 16 )
**312-386 AD : Cyril of Jerusalem **
“The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator by necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature.” (Lecture IV 18 )
**347-407 AD : John Chrysostom **
“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost…it depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help…It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and bring to the end.” (On Hebrews, Homily 12 )
120-180 AD : Tatian
“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (Address to the Greeks, 11)
** (died 180 AD) : Melito**
“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, page 754)
163-182 AD : Theophilus
“If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 27)
130-200 AD : Irenaeus
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37)
150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)
155-225 AD : Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5)
I think the difference being expressed here is that the meaning seems clear that God will ultimately accomplish his intention, regardless of the free will question.
My understanding on Greek dictionaries is that the first meaning of the word listed is the primary meaning, in which case the primary meaning of theleo is “to will, to purpose to do.” This would seem to be borne out by how the word is used in passages where the usage is clearer in meaning.