The Evangelical Universalist Forum

10 Virgins: are half “lost”?

Theology
#1

I’m curious what your quick takes are on this parable – especially as relates to Universal Restoration. (Mt 25)
The 5 Virgins who have enough “oil” are commended, :smiley: and the other 5 – the foolish ones – appear condemned. :astonished: :frowning: And this very same “Lord”, whom we like to say accomplishes “Total Victory” in the end, says instead, go away. Leave. Too late. This despite the fact the 5 ARE doing the right thing – albeit belatedly. Like there’s a deadline that’s been missed.

Wondering what you think, and if this has been addressed here before?? :question: :question: :question:

TotalVictory
Bobx3

Parable of the Ten Virgins
#2

Concerning the ‘lost’ virgins. The door is only shut for the marriage ceremony and banquet, but after these are done the doors are opened and never shut again. The ‘lost’ virgins will not reign with Christ but will be a part of His Kingdom under the reign of those with Christ for a metaphorical thousand year reign.

The parable was talking about those who prepared for the Savior but stopped waiting and believing, versus those who waited for a Savior and were rewarded for their patience. There are still those who wait for Christ to redeem the world, and so look through eyes of disbelief that He hasn’t done this; or they have all together just stopped believing. These are the lost half, those who even if we told them that Jesus saved all mankind, that they would not believe it. However, when they die and the body returns to dust and their spirit returns to God who gave it. They will see, in the second resurrection of the dead, that they missed Him.

#3

I’m sure there’s more in this parable than I am able to see, but here’s my current thoughts:

The virgins would represent the church, I think, since they are all waiting for the bridegroom.

It seems to me this parable is at least partly a warning that the time may be longer than expected, and the ‘wise’ will be prepared for that.

What are the lamps? What is the oil? Why can’t the 5 meet their lord without a lit lamp in their hands? Might this have something to do with it: “Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”? Is there some cultural knowledge that would shed light on this?

I don’t know if I would call them “lost”–but they are shut out from the marriage feast. Even though I believe all will be saved in the end, I see a distinction in scripture between those who have faith in this life and the rest who will come later. He is the Savior of all–especially of those who believe.

Sonia

#4

Sonia.

Could you please show me where people come to faith “later”? I’m sure you have scripture references of people literally coming to faith after they die…I’m having trouble finding these verses…will you please show me?

#5

Thanks for the feedback Student (otW) – I guess you’re saying that the parable is more about the sequences and timing of the salvation of the two general types; those who are saved as firstfruits (and so on) and those who need more time, more remediation, are more rebellious, are more lukewarm/indifferent etc etc. The wedding has commonly been seen as THE only reunion; if one is not there, they must be in… well, you know.

So you see the marriage feast as the initial and first celebration? (maybe not the best words)

That makes sense actually because it really hard for me to equate the marriage feast with the judgement. (that’s real, but something else altogether)

And thanks also SLJ: I was always taught the oil was the Holy Spirit… But how does one “store up” the Holy Spirit? So, if I take your suggestion that oil represent the witness we have? or the genuine relationship with Christ? Leading to those true acts that accurately reflect our friendship with God?
Yeah – I think so.

And A37:
…uh…
sorry, never mind…

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#6

Total Victory.

Exactly. No scriptures.

#7

Are you referring to Rev. 19:7-9? Yeah, that seems rather out of place seeing that the rest of the passage deals with judgment. The imagery of the fowls in the air eating the flesh of kings doesn’t exactly sound appealing to me and nothing of what I envision a marriage feast to be.

But equally baffling is the presentation of the Lamb’s wife as a city with precious stones and twelve gates two chapters later.

#8

Two points (somewhat in tension) worth keeping in mind:

1.) Trying to get a parable to testify in itself beyond the details of the parable, is a dicey proposition at best.

2.) But that also goes for trying to get a parable to testify to an exclusion beyond the details of the parable based on an argument from silence about such a detail in the parable itself. (Edited to add: someone could, for example, argue against almost any precepts of any kind of specifically ‘Christian’ faith, by noting such things aren’t addressed at all in the parable of the prodigal son! Or of the good samaritan either. Doubtless being why those two stories are the most famous parables in world history. :wink: )

All the virgins are servants of the bridgroom and even faithful ones, up to a point. They’re punished, in some way and to some degree, for being lazy in some way. And the plot seems pretty clearly to have something to do with being prepared for the arrival (maybe the ‘return’) of the bridegroom even though the arrival is delayed.

Beyond that, it’s more debatable, including as to how details should be applied from the analogy.

#9

I wonder if this might be one of those “Israel-specific” parables aimed at the believing vs. unbelieving Jews. So-called “racial dispensationalists” for example, believe that (believing) Jews are the bride of Christ while believing Gentiles are the body of Christ. This view makes some sense to me at least metaphysically; it would seem awkward for the bride of Christ to also be his body. So maybe the foolish virgins represent unbelieving Israel who are shut out from the marriage feast (having lost the opportunity to be part of the bride), while still being able to become part of the body later…

Just a thought, I haven’t fleshed this out at all.

#10

In context, that being a discussion on the second coming of Christ, all four of the following parables have one major theme that being - always be ready. They are various ways of illustrating Jesus’ last stated point: 24:42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." Keep watch, be watchful! Live recognizing that today might be our last day! Do not presume upon tomorrow. Live recognizing that we might see the Judge, our Father, at any moment - whether it’s Him coming for all of us or just for you personally! We should all have a healthy sense of our mortality. In the words of a popular song - “Live like we’re dying!”

Exegetically speaking, I believe most parables have one main point and we get into trouble when we try to see in parables multiple messages, especially if we try to use them to prove some systematic theology - even UR.

However, Eisegetically speaking, I also believe in this parable that the Lord is teaching life-lessons on the importance of living right. This parable teaches to me the importance of being prepared and can be summed up in the scentence, “If you’re not prepared, you might miss out on the party!”

I believe all of us have missed out on many of the good things that God would do for, in, and through us because of not being disciplined in our lives and being prepared for opportunities that come our way! Just financially speaking, I could kick myself for waisting my money instead of investing it. Relationally speaking, I wonder how much more joyous my marriage could be right now if I was more disciplined in investing more time, effort, prayer, and money into my marriage. Spiritually, I wonder how many awesome things I’ve missed out on because of not being as disciplined as I could in prayer, study, worship, meditation, fasting, reaching out to others, etc. etc. etc.!!! And I often wonder how much better my life could have been if I’d have been much more disciplined in getting more education! If I had I could possibly be doing full-time now what I love - teaching!

So the Eisegetical message (TO ME) of this passage is to be disciplined in our lives in all matters so as to not miss out on any of the good things that God would do for, in, and through us! I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to miss out on the party!

#11

I can’t help but think there’s some historical context we’re missing here. I think I read something about it before but don’t really remember. Something about virgins being attendants to the wedding feast, one for each guest? :confused:

The explanation that makes the most sense to me in this thread is that of the virgins being the Jews. I honestly have no idea why there are ten and that they are divided right up the middle. I’ve never heard an explanation for that. It’s so intriguing I might have to go look it up, though.

Basically I think that it symbolizes the Jews who did believe (and many did, just think of Acts 2) and became a part of the feast of rejoicing. The others lost their sense of passion (some equate the oil to the Holy Spirit, but it might also be linked with a sense of need as per the Beatitudes, since oil is flammable) and didn’t recognize Him when He came, and so were stuck outside the rejoicing and found themselves gnashing their teeth in the destruction of Jerusalem.

#12

It would seem odd that the final meaning of the parable is actually contrary to the surface/literal meaning of the parable! So when Jesus “I tell you the truth, I don’t know you” (Matt 25:12) he actually means “I’m just pretending to shut the door on you.”

Also what’s with the “Israel” argument, surely the gospels are written to a universal audience and if there are pharisee or Jewish specific comments the text would flag them as such. It just seems a little too convenient to say “Oh that parable just refers to Israel.”

#13

I don’t think he pretends to close the door, but that he opens it later on. The reason for any door is to, at some stage, provide a way to go through a wall.

Well I think it’s fairly safe to say this is hyperbole i.e. I’m sure he knew who they were, but was trying to make a very strong point about punctuality :stuck_out_tongue:

#14

And I heard every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth [in Hades, the place of departed spirits] and on the sea and all that is in it, crying out together, To Him Who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb be ascribed the blessing and the honor and the majesty (glory, splendor) and the power (might and dominion) forever and ever (through the eternities of the eternities)! Rev 5 Amplified Version

Note: every created thing

#15

There is something in you that hears the voice of God with joy (the wise virgins), and another part that rejects it with loathing (the foolish virgins). When the Bridegroom comes, these parts will be separated forever. The part of you that is born of God, that loves the Light, that is filled with the oil of the Spirit, will enter the Kingdom. The other part, the sin living in you, your body of death, the shadowy self that is so Unreal not even God can know it, this evil will be shut out in the darkness of non-existence.

“Therefore keep watch,” says Jesus. Fight the good fight. Take up your cross and follow Christ into battle against the true Philistine. Kill the evil shadow that lives in your heart. Slaughter it without mercy, man, woman and child. Kill its livestock. Burn its houses. Uproot its vineyards. Do not leave one descendant of that evil thing alive in your soul. “Cut off the evil hand. Pluck out the evil eye.”

#16

Alex,

Surely the parable means more than to be punctual? Furthermore why would Jesus use hyperbole to illustrate punctuality?

Allan,

Over at the parable of the sower you also individualized the application of the parable. I don’t see any evidence in the text both at this parable or the other for assuming the application which clearly involves multiple separate people should be internalized by us as we read it. In other-words why do separate sets of virgins have to be warring internal forces inside a single individual?

#17

Sorry the tongue sticking out smilie was meant to indicate I was using hyperbole too :mrgreen:

Let me expand, I assume the parable is meant to reinforce the urgency of coming to Christ now, whilst it’s relatively easy (as opposed as getting to a closed door and having to go via hell :cry: ).

#18

That’s the thing about parables.

Perhaps the foolish virgins represent Israel. They fail to read the times. God’s kingdom came and they missed out. The oil they brought (their understanding of the old covenant) was insufficient to guide them.

Then again, perhaps it can be read as I suggested earlier. Or maybe it’s just about punctuality after all:)

#19

"But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.’

This intrigues me. Jesus uses this phrase a few times. How can it be that the bridegroom, Christ himself, doesn’t know who they are? How hard could it be to recognize them?

Darkness is unreal, being the absence of light. In the same way, evil is unreal, being the absence of good. God knows all there is to know about the real, but there is nothing to know about the unreal. (Not even God can tell me what a vacuum is, because a vacuum is nothing.)

Good and evil are mutually exclusive. They operate in different dimensions. If my best thoughts are tainted with evil, doesn’t this mean I can resolve myself into two components at spiritual right-angles at every point of my psyche? If so, I would be a creature of light and a shadow of darkness, simultaneously. My evil self, “sin living in me” (as Paul called it) would be unreal, just as darkness is unreal. Could this be why God doesn’t know it, or where it comes from?

#20

But the parable does a some sense of finality about it, rather than: “the door is currently closed and you’ll have to take the long around but you’ll get there eventually.” I don’t see that in the parable, it needs to be imported from somewhere else.