11 Reasons Why I'm not an Evangelical Universalist

[Revival]

1. No where in the Gospels did Jesus teach UR. Our doctrine as Christians should be built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). If UR is true…why did Jesus keep it a secret?

2. If Jesus himself did not teach or preach UR, then it must stand to reason according to Eph 2:20 his apostles did not teach or preach UR either. The apostles taught what Jesus taught.

3. There is a sin that Jesus says has NEVER forgiveness in this age or any age but in danger of eternal damnation. This sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29).

4. There is nothing recorded in scripture supporting anyone being redeemed from experiencing the second death in the lake of fire after final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. There is nothing recorded in scripture teaching sinners being in hell until they repent and trust in Christ for their salvation. There is zero support for any of this happening, and a lot of support against it.

5. There is nothing recorded in scripture stating that all names of human history shall be found or eventually found recorded in the Lambs book of life prior to or after final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. In fact, there would be no need for God to open the book of life to see if your name is recorded if all names of human history will be recorded to spend eternity with Him. If your name is not found recorded in the book of life at final judgment you don’t spend eternity with Him.

6. Hebrews 6:4-6…Paul writes through the inspiration of God that it is impossible to renew those who fall away unto repentance.

7. Hebrews 9:27 states it is appointed for man to die once and then judgment.

8. There is 1 final judgment for mankind that happens in Rev 20:11-15. This judgment is based upon our works and determines our eternal destiny.

9. Paul states in 1 Cor 6:9 ; Gal 5:21 and Eph 5:5 that Christians who live these lifestyles of sin will not inherit the kingdom of God.

10. There is no record in scripture of anyone who has been blotted out of the book of life before the final judgment were recorded back in after ( Rev 3:5).

11. Those who take the mark of the beast have no hope of receiving the call of salvation through Christ. They chose their eternal destination by worshipping the beast and taking his mark. (Rev 14:9-11) It stands to reason according to Rev 14:9-11 that the kings of the earth in Rev 19:19-21 have taken this mark and therefore cannot be the same kings of the earth in Rev 21:24.

There are more biblical reasons why I’m not an Evangelical Universalist but these are sufficient. If you would like to discuss any of my 11 reasons… I welcome the discussions. God bless.

[Michael_Thompson]

“1. No where in the Gospels did Jesus teach UR. Our doctrine as Christians should be built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). If UR is true…why did Jesus keep it a secret?”

Hi Aaron
A couple quotes from Jesus from the Gospel of John come to my mind.

“When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me”

“All that the Father gives me will come to me”

[Revival]

“1. No where in the Gospels did Jesus teach UR. Our doctrine as Christians should be built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). If UR is true…why did Jesus keep it a secret?”

Hi Aaron
A couple quotes from Jesus from the Gospel of John come to my mind.

“When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me”

“All that the Father gives me will come to me”

Hello Michael
The first verse you mentioned John 12:32…I understand this verse to be saying that the Jews were relying upon the law for their salvation and Jesus was telling them that relying on Him and not the law will draw all men to salvation (not just the Jews by the law anymore). Jesus, and not the law and ordinances will draw all men to salvation.

The second verse is half of John 6:37…If you keep reading… verse 45 explains verse 37. Jesus says in verse 45 ’ Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, cometh unto me." Has heard, what? Learned of the Father, how? By the scriptures. Jesus told the Jews they thought they had eternal life in the scriptures and they are which testify of Him. ( John 5:39) In other words, if they have learned of the Father ( by the scriptures) they will recognize Jesus as Messiah and receive salvation.

These scriptures when left in context do not support UR.

[revdrew61]

Aaron, In response to your first point, Jesus clearly demonstrated his universal love and his universal power to save from the first to the last moment of his public life. He also told even his closest followers, just before his arrest, that there were further things they needed to be taught but were not ready to learn yet (see John 16:1-16). Based on this last point, I think your demand for specific teaching by Jesus about UR is flawed from the outset.

[Revival]

Aaron, In response to your first point, Jesus clearly demonstrated his universal love and his universal power to save from the first to the last moment of his public life. He also told even his closest followers, just before his arrest, that there were further things they needed to be taught but were not ready to learn yet (see John 16:1-16). Based on this last point, I think your demand for specific teaching by Jesus about UR is flawed from the outset.

Hi Revdrew61

The verse you bring up in John 16:12 was said by Jesus because the disciples didn’t have a nature that was capable of understanding the fullness of what He wanted to tell them. They had a sin nature and needed the nature of God to understand. That is why Jesus taught in parables so much…giving a natural analogy of a spiritual truth to help them understand. They received the life of God or His nature when Jesus completed His work on the cross and was resurrected. Paul explains this in 1 Cor 2:11-14.

By my studies of the scriptures…I have yet to see any record of Jesus teaching or preaching UR anywhere yet you want me to accept it as doctrine? My demanding of specific UR teaching by Jesus that you want me to accept as doctrine is exactly what Eph 2:20 ( as well as other scriptures) tell me to do and if you can’t provide support by Jesus or His apostles… I won’t accept UR as doctrine nor should you. Remember, there are 10 more merits against EU in addition to this one that need to be addressed. God bless.

[Cindy_Skillman]

Actually, I do believe that these Johnine passages support UR in context. Here is another:

for You gave Him authority over all flesh; so He may give eternal life to all You have given Him. (John 17:2 HCSB)

Since All that the Father has given to Jesus will come to Him as the Father draws them, and we learn from John 17 (and elsewhere) that the Father has given the Son authority over ALL (and I think it is not out of line to see that as saying that the Father has given ALL into Jesus’ hand), therefore ALL will eventually be drawn to Jesus by the Father’s call. In addition, later writings of the apostles, and especially Paul, confirm that they understood Jesus to be speaking of ALL people, not just all people groups.

You say you are a Calvinist (though you don’t like labels). Therefore if you follow TULIP, you believe that God is omnipotent and that He cannot be prevented from accomplishing anything that He desires to do. If God desires to save all people, He will accomplish His desire.

The LORD is good to everyone; His compassion rests on all He has made. (Psalms 145:9 HCSB)

The LORD of Hosts will prepare a feast for all the peoples on this mountain-- a feast of aged wine, choice meat, finely aged wine. On this mountain He will destroy the burial shroud, the shroud over all the peoples, the sheet covering all the nations; He will destroy death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove His people’s disgrace from the whole earth, for the LORD has spoken. (Isaiah 25:6-8 HCSB)

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth. For I am God, and there is no other. By Myself I have sworn; Truth has gone from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow to Me, every tongue will swear allegiance. It will be said to Me: Righteousness and strength is only in the LORD." All who are enraged against Him will come to Him and be put to shame. (Isaiah 45:22-24 HCSB)

(Being put to shame does not preclude salvation, BTW, but is part of it. In other passages, Israel will be put to shame when God brings them back to Himself. I myself was also put to shame in coming to God, as I had to confess and repent of all the wicked things I had done.)

for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4 CLV)

In concert with Andrew, I will reiterate that Jesus did not open the mystery fully to His followers during His time on the earth. There were things they were not yet ready to hear, and He would give them these things later through His Spirit. I assume that you accept the teachings of Paul, and Paul’s claims as to his apostleship. Paul claims to have been given the administration of the mystery, to make it fully known:

of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God -" the secret which has been concealed from the eons and from the generations, yet now was made manifest to His saints, (Colossians 1:25-26 CLV)

(I’m using the Concordant Literal Translation here because it is the closest to my Greek interlinear. It is an awkward wording for us, in the English language, and difficult to render in English grammar – They seem to have done the best job, imo.)

I believe Jesus’ listeners, not having our prejudices, did not hear Him as preaching an eternal, never-ending hell, but rather warning that they would miss out on the coming age of the Messiah’s rule. Eternal conscious torment is not taught in the Old Testament and would have had to be laid out quite fully if Jesus were introducing a new doctrine. He did not lay this ground work for ECT, to teach it as a new teaching to the Jews. They had to understand it from the few words He did say, and I believe they did understand it – but not in the way WE understand it, since we are reading our own theological views back into text which has typically been rather mistranslated (because of the translators doing the same thing we’re doing.)

Neither Paul nor any of the other apostles taught anything that contradicted what Jesus taught, but Paul at any rate, certainly seems to have expected all people to be saved.

(for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching. (1 Timothy 4:10-11 CLV)

[Michael_Thompson]

“Hello Michael
The first verse you mentioned John 12:32…I understand this verse to be saying that the Jews were relying upon the law for their salvation and Jesus was telling them that relying on Him and not the law will draw all men to salvation (not just the Jews by the law anymore).”

No it never says “relying on Him will draw anyone to salvation” It says He will draw all men, that is the cause, relying on Him, that is the effect!

" Jesus, and not the law and ordinances will draw all men to salvation."

Amen!

[Revival]

“Hello Michael
The first verse you mentioned John 12:32…I understand this verse to be saying that the Jews were relying upon the law for their salvation and Jesus was telling them that relying on Him and not the law will draw all men to salvation (not just the Jews by the law anymore).”

No it never says “relying on Him will draw anyone to salvation” It says He will draw all men, that is the cause, relying on Him, that is the effect!

" Jesus, and not the law and ordinances will draw all men to salvation."

Amen!

Okay, the Jews were “trusting” upon the law. That was their drawing. Jesus says when I am raised up no longer will any man be drawn to the law to trust it for salvation…you will be drawn to me and trust me for salvation.

[Revival]

Actually, I do believe that these Johnine passages support UR in context. Here is another:

for You gave Him authority over all flesh; so He may give eternal life to all You have given Him. (John 17:2 HCSB)

Since All that the Father has given to Jesus will come to Him as the Father draws them, and we learn from John 17 (and elsewhere) that the Father has given the Son authority over ALL (and I think it is not out of line to see that as saying that the Father has given ALL into Jesus’ hand), therefore ALL will eventually be drawn to Jesus by the Father’s call. In addition, later writings of the apostles, and especially Paul, confirm that they understood Jesus to be speaking of ALL people, not just all people groups.

You say you are a Calvinist (though you don’t like labels). Therefore if you follow TULIP, you believe that God is omnipotent and that He cannot be prevented from accomplishing anything that He desires to do. If God desires to save all people, He will accomplish His desire.

The LORD is good to everyone; His compassion rests on all He has made. (Psalms 145:9 HCSB)

The LORD of Hosts will prepare a feast for all the peoples on this mountain-- a feast of aged wine, choice meat, finely aged wine. On this mountain He will destroy the burial shroud, the shroud over all the peoples, the sheet covering all the nations; He will destroy death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove His people’s disgrace from the whole earth, for the LORD has spoken. (Isaiah 25:6-8 HCSB)

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth. For I am God, and there is no other. By Myself I have sworn; Truth has gone from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow to Me, every tongue will swear allegiance. It will be said to Me: Righteousness and strength is only in the LORD." All who are enraged against Him will come to Him and be put to shame. (Isaiah 45:22-24 HCSB)

(Being put to shame does not preclude salvation, BTW, but is part of it. In other passages, Israel will be put to shame when God brings them back to Himself. I myself was also put to shame in coming to God, as I had to confess and repent of all the wicked things I had done.)

for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4 CLV)

In concert with Andrew, I will reiterate that Jesus did not open the mystery fully to His followers during His time on the earth. There were things they were not yet ready to hear, and He would give them these things later through His Spirit. I assume that you accept the teachings of Paul, and Paul’s claims as to his apostleship. Paul claims to have been given the administration of the mystery, to make it fully known:

of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God -" the secret which has been concealed from the eons and from the generations, yet now was made manifest to His saints, (Colossians 1:25-26 CLV)

(I’m using the Concordant Literal Translation here because it is the closest to my Greek interlinear. It is an awkward wording for us, in the English language, and difficult to render in English grammar – They seem to have done the best job, imo.)

I believe Jesus’ listeners, not having our prejudices, did not hear Him as preaching an eternal, never-ending hell, but rather warning that they would miss out on the coming age of the Messiah’s rule. Eternal conscious torment is not taught in the Old Testament and would have had to be laid out quite fully if Jesus were introducing a new doctrine. He did not lay this ground work for ECT, to teach it as a new teaching to the Jews. They had to understand it from the few words He did say, and I believe they did understand it – but not in the way WE understand it, since we are reading our own theological views back into text which has typically been rather mistranslated (because of the translators doing the same thing we’re doing.)

Neither Paul nor any of the other apostles taught anything that contradicted what Jesus taught, but Paul at any rate, certainly seems to have expected all people to be saved.

(for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching. (1 Timothy 4:10-11 CLV)

Hi Cindy
I’m not a Calvinist. I believe Jesus made provision for every man to receive salvation through faith by their own free will. To avoid being redundant read my responses to Andrew ( revised it a bit) and Michael.

Paul nor any of the other apostles taught anything that contradicted what Jesus taught, but Paul at any rate, certainly seems to have expected all people to be saved.

If you are saying that Paul or any other apostle taught UR then they must of receive it from Jesus. Jesus is not going to teach some new doctrine to the apostles that He didn’t address himself. I believe what Jesus said in Mark 3:29 therefore making it impossible for Him to teach UR.(atleast to me) Show me where Jesus taught UR or didn’t mean what He said in Mark 3:29. Please avoid giving the same scriptures that Michael and Andrew gave for I have already addressed them.

Psalm 145:9…Amen too that but this does not support UR. God having compassion for mankind does not guarantee ones salvation.

Isaiah 25:6-8 is a prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. Again, does not support UR.
Isaiah 45:22-24…don’t see how this supports UR…please explain.

God bless.

[roofus]

Revival said: The first verse you mentioned John 12:32…I understand this verse to be saying…

Isn’t that the crux of the issue, people understand the verses differently?

[SLJ]

Please avoid giving the same scriptures that Michael and Andrew gave for I have already addressed them.

Unfortunately, it seems we continue to be in as much disagreement about those passages as we were the last time you were a member of this forum. You cannot be convinced by our arguments because you disagree with how we understand the text. We cannot be convinced by your arguments because we disagree with how you understand the text. Therefore we must remain at an impasse for the time being.

Sonia

[Revival]

Please avoid giving the same scriptures that Michael and Andrew gave for I have already addressed them.

Unfortunately, it seems we continue to be in as much disagreement about those passages as we were the last time you were a member of this forum. You cannot be convinced by our arguments because you disagree with how we understand the text. We cannot be convinced by your arguments because we disagree with how you understand the text. Therefore we must remain at an impasse for the time being.

Sonia

Hi Sonia, I believe Jesus meant what he said in Mark 3:29, therefore it would of been impossible for Him to teach UR. (atleast to me) Okay, if we can’t agree pick any of the 10 remaining reasons I believe that are against UR.

[Revival]

Revival said: The first verse you mentioned John 12:32…I understand this verse to be saying…

Isn’t that the crux of the issue, people understand the verses differently?

Hey Roofus

Yep, but there is a solution to that problem…we are taught in scripture how to understand it correctly in Isaiah 28:9-11 and Paul expounds on it in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 specifically verse 13. If we apply what these scriptures say to do there are no issues.

[Cindy_Skillman]

You mean:

yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-"
(Mark 3:29 CLV)

but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness–to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;’
(Mark 3:29 YLT)

I don’t see how that is a big trump card for your point. We all believe what Jesus said . . . .

And Paul did get his doctrines from Jesus; directly from Jesus, in fact, as he himself asserted. Paul said what he said, and quite a lot of it is hard to contradict without looking just plain silly. It would be easier to disown Paul, as the Muslims quite sensibly (from their point of view) do. My husband and I were reading some of Paul’s writings concerning how Jesus came to save all the world this evening, and asking ourselves how we had missed it in times past. It’s the age-old problem of “seeing” what you “KNOW” to be there, when you need instead to see what is REALLY there.

I learned quite a while ago that I’ve been wrong about so many things, so I have disavowed pride. I would rather have a true and accurate picture of God than to be seen (by myself and/or others) as being “right.” So I am ready to follow the word wherever it (and He) will take me. It has brought me here, to this blessed hope.

for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us, which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing, and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned; and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned; for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we–we have the mind of Christ.(1 Corinthians 2:11-16 YLT)

Yes, that is how I interpret scripture. And the Isaiah passage also. People will disagree on these things, and you are of course quite permitted to disagree also. But so am I. Only I don’t particularly enjoy debate for no real reason, so I shall withdraw, my brother. Be blessed and I hope you find someone who enjoys debating with you.

[Revival]

You mean:

yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-"
(Mark 3:29 CLV)

but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness–to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;’
(Mark 3:29 YLT)

I don’t see how that is a big trump card for your point. We all believe what Jesus said . . . .

And Paul did get his doctrines from Jesus; directly from Jesus, in fact, as he himself asserted. Paul said what he said, and quite a lot of it is hard to contradict without looking just plain silly. It would be easier to disown Paul, as the Muslims quite sensibly (from their point of view) do. My husband and I were reading some of Paul’s writings concerning how Jesus came to save all the world this evening, and asking ourselves how we had missed it in times past. It’s the age-old problem of “seeing” what you “KNOW” to be there, when you need instead to see what is REALLY there.

I learned quite a while ago that I’ve been wrong about so many things, so I have disavowed pride. I would rather have a true and accurate picture of God than to be seen (by myself and/or others) as being “right.” So I am ready to follow the word wherever it (and He) will take me. It has brought me here, to this blessed hope.

for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us, which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing, and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned; and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned; for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we–we have the mind of Christ.(1 Corinthians 2:11-16 YLT)

Yes, that is how I interpret scripture. And the Isaiah passage also. People will disagree on these things, and you are of course quite permitted to disagree also. But so am I. Only I don’t particularly enjoy debate for no real reason, so I shall withdraw, my brother. Be blessed and I hope you find someone who enjoys debating with you.

Hey Cindy
I believe the KJV to be the best English translation of the Hebrew and Greek. For the KJV is not copy righted as those other translations and for other reasons.( totally another topic of discussion that is debatable) The verse reads in the KJV Mark 3:29 " But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath NEVER forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation" I believe never means never. Thanks for the discussion, Cindy. Remember, there are 10 remaining reasons that I believe are against UR to talk about…

[awakeningaletheia]

Just a minor correction, no big deal, but I want to put that Isaiah verse in context. Since you like the KJV I’ll use that translation.

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

It is saying how NOT to interpret scripture. In fact 1 Corinthians 2 seems in contrast to Isaiah 28. Anyway welcome to the board Revival! I am Daniel. Those are some interesting reasons, yeah the Jesus one stumped me for a bit too, but I agree with Andrew, Jesus’s very life teaches the infinite love and grace of God. Besides Jesus says in John 16:12-13

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

These two verses give us a good picture that Jesus still had much to say, things NOT found in the gospels. The epistles and Acts carry on the revelation of God by the Holy Spirit. To say, “No I won’t listen to anyone but Jesus” is silly when we realize that the Spirit of Truth had MORE revelation to give us. Paul most definitely spoke new things by the Holy Spirit.

1. Anyways Jesus says some things that hint at UR like,

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)"

2. The apostles BUILT on the foundation of Jesus, they had more to tell than Jesus did during his earthly ministry.

3. “Never” is a bad translation man, sorry it just is, its better translated “Forgiven not for the age”. “Damnation” belongs nowhere in the bible, the Greek word simply means judgment. The majority of scholarly evidence will testify to this.

4 and 5. The “torture” in Revelation 14 points toward refining. The literal meaning of basanos, normally translated torture, means “testing” like a precious metal. Everyone salted with fire in Mark 9:49 supports all have to go through refining. Also, Revelation 22 is not where the story ends 1 Corinthians 15 tells of the final end of mankind. At the end of Revelation 22, there is still

a. Rulers and Authorities ** b.** The second death ** c.** Christ still reigning

Yet at the end of 1 Corinthians 15 verse 20-28

a. Rulers and Authorities are no more ** b.** Death is abolished ** c.** Christ is subject to God

Therefore 1 Corinthians 15 is further along than Revelation 22.

6. **“When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:25-26)

“For with God nothing shall be impossible.” (Luke 1:16)**

Sure its impossible, but nothing impossible for God.

7. Judgment it a good thing, I don’t know why people are so bent on making it a bad thing, the verse comes to mind

**“Ye have turned judgment into gall”(Amos 6:12)

“When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)**

8. Nowhere does it speak of eternal destiny. Instead the final judgment, the judgment of the ages will teach all the world righteousness.

9. Yes sinners cannot inherit the kingdom of God, yet by the time they enter the New Jerusalem they won’t be sinners anymore. By the grace and gift of God, they will be saved.

10. Revelation 22 says that all who wash their robes may enter the Gates, elsewhere it says that you must have your name written in the book of life. Meaning? Washing robes=having name written in book of life.

11. It doesn’t say that its not the same kings. In fact the Kings make another appearance in Revelation 19, still rebellious and wicked. We don’t see them again until they are walking in the gates of the New Jerusalem. To say that Revelation is talking about 2 different groups of Kings is a bit of a stretch

Alright I’m done haha, I’m not gonna debate anymore. Just my 2 cents. Thanks for putting forward your beliefs, remember its not about being right, its about finding out the truth.

[pilgrim]

Hi Aaron
Firstly, I do not accept your rejection of the verses which (I believe) showed that Jesus spoke of UR, but if I were to conclude that Jesus never mentioned UR - does that mean that I should not accept it?
If you, as you claim, cannot accept any doctrine that did not come from the mouth of Jesus as recorded in the gospels then presumably you don’t believe in the doctrine that the homosexual act is a sin.
Is it true that you do not believe that the homosexual act is a sin?
Or can you cite where Jesus declared it to be a sin?
Or do you just pick and choose which doctrines you apply this strange rule to?

[Revival]

Just a minor correction, no big deal, but I want to put that Isaiah verse in context. Since you like the KJV I’ll use that translation.

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

It is saying how NOT to interpret scripture. In fact 1 Corinthians 2 seems in contrast to Isaiah 28. Anyway welcome to the board Revival! I am Daniel. Those are some interesting reasons, yeah the Jesus one stumped me for a bit too, but I agree with Andrew, Jesus’s very life teaches the infinite love and grace of God. Besides Jesus says in John 16:12-13

Hey Awakeningaletheia

Not sure what translation you used but if wasn’t the authorized KJV for Isaiah 28:9-11 which reads like this:

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Paul talks about in 1 Cor 2:12 receiving the spirit of God that we might know the things freely giving to us of God. How? verse 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words of man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth: comparing spiritual things with spiritual. How is this done? By praying in tongues. Paul explains how this is done in 1 Cor chapter 14. See my response to Andrew about John 16:12.

8. Nowhere does it speak of eternal destiny. Instead the final judgment, the judgment of the ages will teach all the world righteousness.

9. Yes sinners cannot inherit the kingdom of God, yet by the time they enter the New Jerusalem they won’t be sinners anymore. By the grace and gift of God, they will be saved.

10. Revelation 22 says that all who wash their robes may enter the Gates, elsewhere it says that you must have your name written in the book of life. Meaning? Washing robes=having name written in book of life.

11. It doesn’t say that its not the same kings. In fact the Kings make another appearance in Revelation 19, still rebellious and wicked. We don’t see them again until they are walking in the gates of the New Jerusalem. To say that Revelation is talking about 2 different groups of Kings is a bit of a stretch

The final judgment in Rev 20:11-15 begins by standing before God and HIm opening books (plural) in verse 12 including the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. We will be judged according to our works and the book of life will determine our eternal destiny. If your found recorded in the book of life you spend eternity with God and if you’re not recorded you don’t.

Where is it recorded in scripture of point 9 happening?

The kings of the earth in REV 19:19-21 cannot be the kings of the earth in Rev 21:24 due to the truth already established in Rev 14:9-11 and Rev 20:11-15 final judgment. God bless.

[Revival]

Hi Aaron
Firstly, I do not accept your rejection of the verses which (I believe) showed that Jesus spoke of UR, but if I were to conclude that Jesus never mentioned UR - does that mean that I should not accept it?
If you, as you claim, cannot accept any doctrine that did not come from the mouth of Jesus as recorded in the gospels then presumably you don’t believe in the doctrine that the homosexual act is a sin.
Is it true that you do not believe that the homosexual act is a sin?
Or can you cite where Jesus declared it to be a sin?
Or do you just pick and choose which doctrines you apply this strange rule to?

Hey Pilgrim
I respect your rejection but that doesn’t me I’m wrong.

I do believe homosexuality is an abomination to God as taught in the OT (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Deut. 23:17.) Jesus taught the sanctity of the marriage union expounded by the Father in Genesis. ( Matthew 19:4-6) Since Jesus taught and approved of this union could we say Jesus condemned homosexuality in a indirect way? God bless.

[auggybendoggy]

Aaron,
You forgot the scriptures where God states “I do not cast off men forever”.

I think you raise good objections as most people do. But there is much more than just one single verses. The character of God is central. God’s sov. is central. God’s love is ALL critical. It’s far more complex than a single verse. Just ask a JW or Mormon - they too demand one verse where the trinity is spelled out. I’m wondering do you bring passages together in order to defend trinity? Or do you have scripture where 1 God 3 persons is declared? “God with us” does not state 1 God 3 persons.

So if you can employ a methodology to defend your view, why can’t others?