Amen, Jeff.
Aaron,
So now you’re saying that they did understand scriptures but not fully? So what Jesus did was open their minds so they could understand SOME of the scriptures, but what they really needed was a dose of tounges?
Weak Aaron. You demand that people quote scripture in context but NO WHERE in Cor 14 does paul equate speaking in tounges with hermeneutics.
Seriously, go to your own, like Roger Olson - he’s pentecostal - and ask him if you’re right about that. Perhaps you are but it Roger will at least be able to show me how so. Currently I’m not even certain that Isa is referring to hermeneutics.
And I have no reason to believe that the disciples could not understand the scriptures before they spoke in tounges AND I have every reason to believe they could understand the scriptures before they spoke in tounges.
And as SOTW pointed out, he does too and he’s a Universalist. LOL!
Craig, it does matter. Its not the ability to be able to speak or pray in tongues but how often and how long you actually pray in tongues daily. Paul said I pray in tongues more than all. I’m talking praying consistently in tongues for hours a day everyday. Do you do this?
Slow down, Gene. If the disciples were capable of understanding fully why did Jesus have to open their minds?
View my response to Craig.
Very telling.
Hi Revival,
You wrote:
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Everything Jesus taught was completely consistent with UR, and much of what Jesus taught (both in word and in deed) are principles that are fundamental to UR.
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Jesus taught that all people would be drawn to himself (John 12:32). The “drawing” of which Christ speaks should be understood in light of what he said in John 6:44. There, being “drawn” likely refers to God’s work in making people receptive to the truth.
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Even if Jesus isn’t recorded in the Gospels as having fully revealed the truth of UR to people during his earthly ministry, we can infer that he did fully reveal the truth to his apostle, Paul, at some point (i.e., after his resurrection and ascension), because this was Paul’s explicit teaching.
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When do you think the doctrine of ECT (eternal/endless conscious torment) was first revealed by God?
See above.
My understanding of this passage can be found here: Volunteers to summarize "unpardonable sin"?
What John speaks of in Rev 20:11-15 would only be problematic for the believer in UR if the “dead” being judged are immortal human beings and the judgment is endless in duration. But I see no reason to believe that this particular judgment - whether it’s thought to be past or future - takes place sometime after the “last enemy” has been abolished, after Christ has delivered the kingdom to God, and after God has become “all in all” (1 Cor 15:24-28). I don’t think there’s any evidence from the immediate or larger context that this judgment (whether it’s thought to be past of future) takes place somewhere other than in this temporal world, during this mortal existence. This judgment no more concerns human beings in another state of existence than the judgment which God brought upon Sodom and Gomorrah when he rained down fire and brimstone from heaven and turned the cities to ashes (2 Pet 2:6). It’s a temporal judgment: The Hell on Earth View - a subset of UR
Where is your evidence that being written in the book of life has anything to do with where a person will “spend eternity?” You seem to be simply assuming this to be true without justification, and reading this idea into the text. But rather than simply assuming it to be so, what you should instead be trying to argue is that the book of life does, in fact, concern our final destiny. If (as I believe) the BOL is simply the book in which the names of those who were/are to inherit the Messianic kingdom are recorded and thus does not have anything to do with what is to take place after Christ has ceased to reign and has delivered the kingdom to God, then your point is moot.
First, the author’s warning can be understood in a similar sense as Jesus’ words in Mark 10:24-25, where Jesus is using hyperbole to express how difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the Messianic kingdom. But as Christ goes on to say, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God” (v. 27). Second, the author of Hebrews is writing to Jewish Christians, and is talking about the difficulty of Jewish Christian apostates repenting before God brought judgment upon their nation. He has in view the day of judgment that these believers could see “drawing near” (Heb 10:25), when the Lord was going to judge his people, Israel (v. 30). You’re reading ECT into the text here.
Even if this “death” is understood as a literal death, where are we told that the judgment is one in which some people will be sentenced to ECT? You’re reading this into the text.
Where are we told that this judgment “determines our eternal destiny?” You have provided zero evidence for this. I see no good reason why anyone should believe that this judgment takes place after all people have been drawn to Christ (John 12:32), made alive in Christ (1 Cor 15:21-22; cf. vv. 48-49), united in Christ (Eph 1:10), reconciled to God (Col 1:20), subjected to Christ (Phil 2:10-11), justified/made righteous by Christ (Rom 5:18-19) and have obtained the freedom of the glory of the children of God (Rom 8:21). To assert that this judgment extends beyond the time when God becomes “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28) is (to me at least) like asserting that the judgment referred to in Genesis 6 or Jeremiah 19 extends beyond this time as well.
When Paul speaks of the “kingdom of God” and the “kingdom of God’s Son” in these verses (cf. Col 1:13) he’s referring to the Messianic kingdom (see Dan 2:44 and 7:13-14). The Messianic kingdom is called “the kingdom of God” or “the kingdom of heaven” because (in accordance with Daniel’s prophecy) it is a kingdom set up by “the God of heaven.” The apostle Peter referred to the Messianic kingdom as “the age-abiding kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet 1:11, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible). And in 1 Cor 15:24-28 (cf. Ps. 110:1) it is revealed by Paul that Christ’s reign is not of endless duration. Rather, Christ is going to reign “until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” The word “until” indicates that the placing of Christ’s enemies under his feet is the goal of his reign; when this goal is reached, there will no longer be any need for Christ to continue reigning. After Christ has subjected all people to himself he will then deliver the kingdom back to the one from whom he originally received it (1 Cor 15:24; cf. Dan 7:13-14). Paul calls the time when Christ delivers the kingdom back to God “the end” - i.e., the consummation of the Messianic reign, when Christ fully accomplishes the redemptive purpose for which God gave him “all authority in heaven and on earth.” The fact that many in Paul’s day were not going to inherit the “kingdom of God” (i.e., the Messianic kingdom) does not mean they were doomed for “all eternity,” because the blessing Paul has in view does not pertain to anyone’s “eternal destiny.”
This would only be problematic for those who believe that being blotted out of the book of life has eternal implications (and even then, there are ways of understanding this that are consistent with UR). But since I don’t believe Scripture teaches this, I consider it a moot point.
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The judgment suffered by those who worship the beast and take his mark is not ECT. Rather, it’s a temporal judgment: Revelation 14:9-11
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If you think you’ve chosen your “eternal destination” then I have some bad news for you (or at least, it’s bad news for one’s pride and self-righteousness): the only human being who chooses your “eternal destination” is Jesus Christ. It is Jesus whom God made Lord of all and who has been given charge of your “eternal destiny” - not you. To believe that God has left or will leave your will or anyone else’s will outside of Jesus’ control is, I think, to directly contradict Heb 2:9, where we are told that everything is going to be put in subjection to Christ, and that God left nothing outside of Jesus’ control. One day, every desire and will that is inconsistent with God’s purpose to become “all in all” will be abolished, and all people will be subjected to Christ. While you may not yet like the idea of having to share heaven with all the people who weren’t wise and virtuous enough to make the right decision before they died (like you did
), I’m confident that you’ll see things differently one day. And then we can rejoice together. 
Hello Aaron, I understand John 12:32 to be saying that the Jews were relying upon the law for their salvation and Jesus was telling them that relying on Him and not the law will draw all men to salvation (not just the Jews by the law anymore). Jesus, and not the law and ordinances will draw all men to salvation.
Why would Jesus be secretive about a important part of the redemption of man(UR) in his teachings in the gospels? Why would Jesus explicitly teach UR to Paul and not the other apostles? Would not this contradict 2 Peter 1:20?
Indeed, Aaron. Indeed. God is a Spirit. Man is a spirit. God is eternal. Man is eternal. How? because God made man in his image and likeness. The word ‘image’ comes from the Hebrew word ‘tselem’ and it means resemblence or representative figure. The word for ‘likeness’ comes from the Hebrew word ‘d muth’ and it means similtude, model or shape, pattern. In plain talk, this means that God desired man to look like, act like, and live like Himself. A non-deified replica of himself! Praise God!
Something had to happen to get our names written in the book of life. Who gives life? Jesus. Is it safe to assume before accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receiving life from him you don’t have it? Of course. (Eph 2:1;5)
Books (plural) are open those you will be judged by your works and the book of life was opened…why? because this book determines your eternal destiny. If your name is found recorded you spend eternity with God…If your name is not found recorded you are thrown into the lake of fire and you are separated from God for eternity.
This death is a literal physical death. You go to either hell or heaven after you die before the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. at this judgment you are judged for your works and to see if you are written in the book of life (your eternal destiny).
It is very problematic considering this determines whether you enter the New Jerusalem and the New Earth or are thrown into the lake of fire at final judgment. God does not consider this a moot point.
Hi Revival,
You wrote:
So in other words, all men will ultimately rely on Jesus and thus be drawn to salvation. Gotcha. You must actually be a universalist playing “devil’s advocate” here! For as you know, the law never drew “all (or even some) men to salvation.” Rather, “the law came in to increase the trespass” (Rom 5:20). So I’m glad Jesus is going to actually do what the law was never intended by God to do (i.e., draw all men to salvation)!
“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous” (Rom 5:18-19).
Man…the depressing idea that Christ (who not only has all authority in heaven and on earth but also loves us all more than we can imagine) is either unable or unwilling to save everyone for whom he died just doesn’t hold a candle to the glorious truth of which Paul’s speaking here. Believe the good news, Aaron.
Why would Jesus be as secretive as he was during his public ministry concerning his identity as the Messiah? Why would Jesus’ public teaching consist mostly of parables rather than of statements that would make the truth obvious to everyone? When you answer these questions, perhaps you’ll have a better idea of how a believer in UR could possibly answer your question.
Also, you seem to have overlooked the question I asked you. If you could answer it in your next response, I’d appreciate it. Again, the question is, “When do you think the doctrine of ECT was first revealed by God?”
And here’s a follow-up question: Why do you think that Paul didn’t warn his Gentile readers of the “hell” (i.e., “Gehenna” or Hinnom Valley) that Jesus warned his Jewish listeners of several times during his ministry?
Actually, I didn’t say Christ didn’t teach it to the other apostles. Please read my response again, but this time without reading into it what’s not there.
How would it contradict 2 Peter 1:20?
Human beings are mortal, and are not said to become immortal until they have been made alive in Christ and death has been abolished (see 1 Cor 15, whole chapter). Do you agree or disagree with this? Unless Rev 20:11-15 refers to a judgment that takes place or continues after all who die in Adam have been made alive in Christ, it is in no way problematic for UR. And even if this judgment does take place after all who die in Adam have been made alive in Christ, you still haven’t shown that this judgment is endless in duration for any of God’s image-bearers. The fact that John doesn’t explicitly reveal in these closing chapters what is to happen to those thrown into the lake of fire in no way means that he thought this was their “final state.” This seems to be your assumption, however. But to me, that’s like arguing that the judgments described in Isaiah 34:8-17, Jeremiah 19 or Ezekiel 22:17-22 refer to the “eternal destiny” of people, just because we aren’t explicitly told otherwise in the immediate contexts.
I agree that Jesus “gives life,” and of course it’s safe to assume that we don’t have the “life” that comes by believing on Jesus before we actually believe on him. But the life that he gives to those who believe on him as Lord and Savior of all is not the same exact blessing that he will ultimately give to all who are dying in Adam, or who have already died in Adam. The former blessing is received and enjoyed by mortals who believe on Christ, while the latter will be bestowed on all people both dead and living, irrespective of whether or not one was “just” or “unjust.” As Paul says, “…we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe” (1 Tim 4:10).
According to Hebrews 11:1, faith is “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Faith can only be exercised - and is thus only conditional to our salvation - while the things that are “hoped for” (such as our being raised immortal by Christ - Acts 24:15; Rom. 8:20-25; 1 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Jn. 3:2-3) have not yet been realized. But when Christ returns to raise the dead and take us to heaven (Acts 1:11; John 14:1-3; 1 Thess 4:13-18) the faith by which we presently “walk” will be replaced by sight (2 Cor 5:6-8). When faith has been replaced by sight, it will no longer be that on which salvation will depend. That is, when we have been saved by Jesus from everything from which we need to be saved (and thus made fit for heaven), “faith” (as defined in Heb 11:1) will no longer be necessary or possible. While at present “we see in a mirror dimly” and “know in part,” Paul tells us that we will one day see “face to face” and “shall know fully,” even as we “have been fully known” (1 Cor 13:12).
Christ differentiates the “life” that comes by faith from the blessing of being raised up by him on the “last day” in John 6:40. In contrast to “everlasting life” (or more accurately, the “life of the age”) which can only be enjoyed by believers (and which necessarily excludes not only those who have made an “informed decision” to reject Christ, but also infants/young children, many mentally disabled people, and every person throughout history who has lived and died without having ever heard about Christ), being raised up by Christ on the last day is a blessing that embraces all people: “This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39). Elsewhere we learn that all people have been given to Christ by God (John 3:35; 13:3; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22), that Christ is “the firstborn of all creation” (Col 1:15) and thus the inheritor of “all things” (Heb 1:2 cf. Psalm 2:8), and that Christ is “Lord” (i.e., he has absolute ownership rights) of all people, both dead and living (Acts 10:36; Rom 14:9; 1 Cor. 11:3). It is further revealed by Paul that all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22; Acts 24:15) and will thus bear Christ’s heavenly image (1 Cor. 15:42-49). If anyone dying in Adam is not going to be raised up by Christ on the last day, then it will mean that they have been “lost” by him. But since all are to be made alive in Christ on the last day, it necessarily follows that none will be lost by him.
Believe the good news, Aaron. The ending to the story of redemptive history is not a tragedy for most or any. It is much, much better than you think it will be. God will make sure of it.
Again, I must ask you: where do you see it revealed that our being written in the book of life has anything to do with where we will “spend eternity,” or that it “determines our eternal destiny?” What passages do you see as supporting your view that having one’s name written in the BOL means that one will be finally saved, while not having one’s name written in the BOL means that one will be finally and irreversibly lost? You have so far provided zero evidence for this.
Why do you think having your name recorded in the BOL means you get to “spend eternity with God?” Why do you think not having your name recorded in the BOL means that you’ll be “separated from God for eternity?” Where do you think Scripture teaches this?
For the sake of argument, I’m fine discussing this verse on the assumption that the “literal physical death” of all people is in view (I’ve argued for this interpretation myself elsewhere on this forum, although I’ve since become more inclined to view the death in view as a figurative death that typified the death of Christ). But like I said, even if this “death” is understood as a literal death, where are we told that the judgment following it is one in which some people will be sentenced to ECT? Simply referring to Rev 20:11-15 does not prove this, because not even you think that the judgment of Rev 20:11-15 takes place for everyone immediately following their death. And I deny that this passage speaks of a “final judgment” for every unbeliever who has ever lived, or that it has anything to do with anyone’s “eternal destiny.”
Again, you’re assuming things that you haven’t even yet attempted to prove - namely, that the judgment spoken of in Rev 20:11-15 involves every unbelieving person who has ever lived, and that the judgment is to result in an endless and irreversible state. You’re assuming that because John doesn’t explicitly say in this passage that those thrown into the “lake of fire” will be saved, that this is their “eternal destiny.” But again, that’s like arguing that the judgments described in Isaiah 34:8-17, Jeremiah 19 or Ezekiel 22:17-22 refer to the “eternal destiny” of people, just because we aren’t explicitly told otherwise in the immediate contexts.
You also seem to be assuming that what John is describing when he speaks of the new Jerusalem and the new heaven and new earth is an eternal, permanent state of existence beyond this mortal life. But I don’t think the new heaven and new earth refers to our “eternal destiny” (although I do think it refers to the final dispensation of redemptive history which will immediately precede the final, “eternal” state in which mankind will exist after Christ raises the dead and changes the living, as described in 1 Cor 15 and elsewhere).
Jesus was not secretive about his identity as Messiah. John 4:25-26 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Jesus spoke in parables because the people who he spoke to had a sin nature and was not capable of understanding the fullness of the spiritual truth. Jesus gave natural analogies to teach a spiritual truth. I answered them now answer mine.
The doctrine of ECT was first revealed when God created the lake of fire for the devil and his fallen angels.
The bible also doesn’t reveal Paul going to the bathroom but we both know he did. The Bible says that there were a lot of miracles and things Jesus did in his ministry that was not recorded.
No, I disagree. Our natural bodies are mortal but our spirits and souls are immortal whether we are born again with life of God or not. Our bodies receive immortality at the completion of our redemption. Rom 8:23; 1 Cor 15:52-54.
We are created in God’s image and likeness. We are created a non-deified replica of God.
firstly sorry for the delay , I have highlighted part of your response for a valid reason , one in which I asked the question to begin with 
, it certainly appears that you are putting the emphasis upon what ‘‘you’’ do or believe , isn’t salvation all of GOD 
the answers I have given aren’t exactly in-depth , but I have tried to be as concise as possible , it seems to me you have some very valid questions and that’s a good thing perhaps if you were to read some of the books presenting u.r.
showing the evidence for the position and you may well find the answers your looking for
Hi Revival,
You wrote:
Actually, there are verses which indicate that Jesus did, in fact, try to keep his identity from being renown during his public ministry (Matthew 8:1-4; 16:20; Mark 1:34, 40-44; 3:11-12; 8:29-30; Luke 5:12-15; 9:20-21). The circumstances are what determined when it was appropriate (or not) for Jesus to be more open with who he was. But the point is that Jesus had good and wise reasons for being more secretive or discreet at times concerning his identity during his public ministry. Some circumstances make the revealing of certain truths to people more appropriate than others. In John 16:12 Jesus told his disciples, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” In other words, it wouldn’t have been appropriate for Jesus to make known to them at that time the “many things” he still had to say to them. But later, it would be appropriate, and they would consequently be guided into “all the truth” by the “Spirit of truth” (v. 13).
Do you think the “many things” that Jesus still had to say to his disciples (but which they could not then bear) may have been truths connected with Jesus’ coming death, resurrection and ascension (which the disciples had a difficult time grasping until after these events had actually taken place)?
I’m not sure I understand your response. I don’t think you’re suggesting that Jesus’ disciples didn’t have a “sin nature” (because they seemed pretty capable of sinning during Jesus’ public ministry to me). So are you saying that the parables were intended to help people with sinful natures better understand spiritual truths?
I prefer the reason Jesus gives for why he spoke in parables. In Matthew 13 (cf. Mark 4:11-12), we read:
You asked, “Why would Jesus be secretive about a important part of the redemption of man(UR) in his teachings in the gospels?” I think it’s because there were things that needed to take place first before it would’ve been more appropriate for this truth to be made known more explicitly to the world. The truth of UR is inseparable from the truth of Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension (which is why Jesus’ most explicit mention of UR in John 12:32 is in connection with his coming death). The disciples were hardly able to understand and bear the truth that Jesus had to die and would later be resurrected, so for Jesus to have been more explicit during his ministry about a doctrinal truth that was inseparable from his death, resurrection and ascension before these events had taken place would have been inappropriate.
I don’t think you quite understood my question, so let me try to be clearer: When do you think the doctrine of ECT was first revealed by God to mankind? When do you think this doctrine was first made known by God to human beings in this world? Surely you don’t believe mankind was present when you think “God created the lake of fire for the devil and his fallen angels.”
I think you’re kind of undermining your own argument against UR (which is based on what Jesus is recorded and not recorded as having said during his public ministry) with the above statements.
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The words translated “immortal,” “immortality,” or “incorruptible” are never connected with the words translated “spirit” and “soul” in Scripture. In fact, Scripture explicitly speaks of the “soul” as being able to die, be killed, or be destroyed. And if by our “spirit” you’re referring to the “breath of life” that was breathed into Adam’s nostrils when he became a “living soul” (and which is present in all of his living descendents, as well as in non-human creatures) this is nowhere spoken of as being something that is either mortal or immortal. That which isn’t a living thing or being cannot be considered mortal or immortal; it’s merely part of (or an attribute of) a thing or being that is either mortal or immortal. If you disagree, ok. I don’t really want to get involved in another in-depth discussion on this particular topic right now.
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You seem to agree with me that there are different kinds of “life” that human beings can receive or have received from God. Is that correct?
Yep. But Scripture teaches we’re mortal image-bearers until we become immortal at the resurrection of the dead.
Hi Aaron
That and other things. John 14, 15 ,16 Jesus explains sending another comforter to pick up on the things that he wanted to teach that the Holy Spirit would teach them and us.
Yep.
So, are you conceding the fact Jesus did not teach UR? So, are you saying the disciples or anyone else would not be able to understand that every human being that ever lived would eventually have right standing with God?
I know Jesus taught ECT in multiple places in the NT especially in Luke 16:19-31. I know you don’t agree with this but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong. I never done any extensive research on ECT in the OT but I’m sure its there somewhere.
Not at all, the difference is John 21:25 states the many other things Jesus did that went unrecorded were the mircacles, healings, casting out devils, etc…not secretly holding back an important part of the redemption of man (UR).
No, Adam received the life of God when he was created in Gen 2:7. Then he lost that life in Gen 3 in the fall and received the sin nature or spiritual death. Every human born since Adam has inherited this sin nature. This nature is changed with the life of God or the nature of God when you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.
- Sin nature or spiritual death
- life of God or spiritual life
Those are the different kinds of 'life" human beings can have. But they both don’t come from God. The sin nature is passed down from Adam. The life of God we receive from Jesus by faith.
Hi Revival,
I wrote:
You replied:
Well first, let me say that I think the OT prophesied UR in “germ form,” although I don’t think the saints before the advent of Christ saw and understood the ultimate future of all people as clearly as those living after the advent of Christ. But yeah, I don’t believe it was Christ’s purpose to announce the doctrine of UR to the Jewish or Gentile world during his public ministry. While I do believe he taught and lived out principles that are consistent with and even fundamental to the truth of UR, I don’t think Christ saw it as his mission to personally and explicitly make this truth known to everyone. Rather, it was the men whom Christ discipled who I believe were commissioned (and then empowered on the day of Pentecost) to make known to the world those historical facts concerning Christ which, as a Universalist, I think entail UR (and I think what Paul wrote in his epistles is good evidence that ultimate universal salvation was seen by the early Christians as the logical implication of the gospel of Jesus’ death and resurrection, and as the necessary and inevitable outcome of Jesus’ reign).
So what do I think the disciples believed about people’s “final destiny” before they received a clearer revelation of the truth of UR after Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension? Well, if their beliefs were derived primarily from the OT, then I can tell you what they didn’t believe: eternal conscious torment. While I think OT revelation was purposely meant to be somewhat ambiguous concerning the final destiny of all, I don’t think it ever reveals ECT. I see this doctrine as completely foreign to the OT. Rather, I see the OT as containing enough hints and glimpses of the future to give one hope that the wicked might be restored, even if they were to be indefinitely excluded from the spiritual blessings that would be bestowed by God under the reign of the Messiah. So Jesus’ disciples may have simply been more or less agnostic (or held to more speculative beliefs) in regards to what would be the final state of all people. If, however, the eschatological beliefs of Jesus’ disciples were initially based more on the “traditions of men” rather than on their inspired Scriptures (as seemed to be the case for the Pharisees), then they probably would’ve held to some form of ECT for the wicked, or annihilation. Either way, I don’t think Jesus’ disciples were prepared to believe “to the saving of their souls” that all people would ultimately be reconciled to God until after those events took place which Paul considered essential to the gospel. I think the truth of UR was simply too radical, and required a radical event (i.e., Jesus’ resurrection) to bring them to the place where they would be able to “bear it” and then spend the rest of their lives trying to bring others to a place where they could believe it as well, and be blessed by it. And this is what I (and others, I’m sure) are trying to do for you, although I’m becoming more and more doubtful that this is the best approach.
So you haven’t done any extensive study on whether or not ECT is in the OT but you’re “sure it’s there somewhere.” Hmm. Well perhaps you could start researching it now, and let us know what your findings are. Knowing when you think God first revealed the doctrine of ECT to mankind will help me better respond to your criticism that, if UR were true, Jesus would’ve laboured to make it known to the world.
So you don’t believe that a person can be considered as having any kind of “life,” or as being “alive” in any sense, until they are born again and receive the “spiritual life” that comes by faith? If this isn’t what you believe, then it seems we’re in agreement that there are different kinds of “life” that human beings can receive or have received from God. If this is what you believe, then we may have hit a roadblock in this discussion.
I speak in tongues every day. If you are trying to make a point, you lose. I am probably one of the few ‘Charasmatic’ Christians who trusts in the Gospel of Salvation for All, here. Speaking in tongues don’t really mean much to any one other than he who speaks in tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:4-6
Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?
1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
Your case is pretty shoddy and falls apart when examined by the Scriptures and challenged by others who also speak in tongues.
I didn’t ask you if you spoke in tongues everyday. Do you pray in tongues for hours a day for personal edification as described in 1 Cor 14:2;4? If not, then the benefits of praying in tongues taught by Paul in 1 Cor 14 is a mystery to you. God bless.
Only If your UR brethren understood this fact… instead they take scripture out of context to try to prove something that didn’t happen. I thank you for the discussion, Aaron. God bless.
Hi Revival,
You wrote:
I’m assuming you realize that I believe Jesus was affirming the truth of UR in John 12:32. All I’m denying is that Jesus’ purpose during his public ministry was to convert the Jewish or Gentile world to a belief in UR. IOW, while I do believe Jesus was affirming UR in John 12:32, I don’t think he said what he did with the intent that those listening would “get it” at the time and become believers in UR because of what he said (and I think many of my “UR brethren” on this forum would agree with me on this). I also believe Jesus taught things that were completely inconsistent with ECT, and which only make sense within a paradigm in which UR (rather than ECT) is true. And while you’re asserting that some Universalists on this forum “take scripture out of context to try to prove something that didn’t happen,” you’re basically trying to argue that something that is going to happen (i.e., Christ’s drawing all people to himself) is not going to happen. So I’m not sure you have much room to talk. I’ve found the non-UR interpretations you’ve provided for this verse to be as fanciful and strained as your interpretation of every other NT passage in which UR is so clearly affirmed. Your commitment to the doctrine of ECT forced you to come up with some rather bizarre interpretations of this verse in the past (Does “all” in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God’s wrath?), and your most recent attempt at denying what we believe Christ was affirming here is not much better (for contrary to what you said earlier, the Jews were never being “drawn to salvation” by relying on the law). But you did get it right when you said, “Jesus, and not the law and ordinances will draw all men to salvation.” But of course, you don’t even believe your own words, because you don’t think Jesus will draw all men to salvation. If you did, you’d have to abandon your belief in ECT.
Btw, a lot of Jews were relying on the law for their salvation(even though this was not the intention of the law) and in their eyes being drawn towards it so much it became a stumbling block to accept Christ. Your commitment to being a preterist UR has also forced you into some rather bizarre interpretations of scripture… Thanks again for the discussion.
TAFKABAA37. (The artist formerly known as Born Again Aaron37) Lol.