The Evangelical Universalist Forum

2nd Thoughts On ChristianPUR (Purgatorial Universal Restoration)

I found an interesting article, from the Patheos Evangelical newsletter.

What is a Heretic? Netflix’s ‘Christian Film’ Come Sunday

The film appears to deal with universalism. Of course, being a hopeful universalist…in harmony with current Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theological direction - regarding this topic…I don’t side with the author’s viewpoint. Perhaps folks outside this forum, have “misleading ideas” - on what universalism is? Let me quote a bit - from the article:

The problem with universalism, the idea that there is no hell and everyone is going to be saved, is that it has no respect for human choices.

Let me go on, to quote a bit more - from the article:

After all, if we’re all fine, why would Jesus have to come to earth, be put under the law and be put to death? If we’re all going to heaven, why would Jesus say that we must be born again to see the kingdom of God? If sin has no eternal consequences, why would the Bible be so explicit about the dire need of justification for sinners before God? And, as a few different characters in this film say, if there is no hell or punishment in the next life, why would the Bible talk about hell and punishment so much?

Here’s a YouTube trailer - on the film:

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To be fair dude, you’ve been bitterly insulting my position (which is underhandedly and subtextually saying things about mewhether you recognize it or not)… pretty much since you’ve gotten here and I’ve been trying to overlook it and have a general talk about my thesis based on scripture. Let’s not get into semantics about what constitutes a direct vs indirect insult as its been clear from your tone that you’ve been stagnantly antagonistic against my position (which would be no problem if you actually put forth even somewhat of a scriptural/exegetical argument rather than repeating your drivel with negative emotive language and militant opposition that you’ve already established in plenty of your own posts and responses to others’, not to mention this one).
You took so many of my statements outta context without so little as attempting to address where our miscommunication could’ve been reconciledby extension throwing me under the bus with whimsical, increasingly repetitive, self-entitled low-blows. I just got tired of it and put the nail in the coffin before your verbal hostility became more glaringly obvious than it already was
,

. Even @anon12438761 had more class where we clashed on ideologies (which I’ve earnestly welcomed and made that clear from the start), and was light years more graceful than you in his disagreements with me. The same way you seem to cry about @St_Michael trolling your threads, you seem to be hypocritically doing the same to mine (or at least this one).

Frankly, it was already escalated the moment you came to this thread but I stuck it out until you kept breaking olive branches every time I offered to understand your position either Biblically, or even philosophically (minus all the pansy moaning about what makes you uncomfortable, though I would’ve endured it had you not been so ungrateful with my silent forbearance). @qaz. Come to think of it, I don’t mind bumping heads with someone like you. You motivate me keep studying to show myself approved and I thank you for it. I would apologize for any misunderstandings we had at the risk of what seems like conceding to where I was wrong but I’m not sure you’d wanna do the same. Still, I apologize since it seems like we’ve reached a fruitless dead end and I’d actually like to continue this conversation (albeit in PMs or something) unless you’re willing to give a scriptural case. Oh, and sorry for my reactionary name-calling. I’d rather do it directly than indirectly, though :wink:

EVEN DaveB??? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Yes Elder Dave, even… no, especially you haha :laughing:

Seriously? You find something you already don’t like (then against my request, don’t seek or care to understand why I cling to the position I hold to), spin it out of the placement of this whole discussion then give me an imperative about what to do with/about my thread? If that’s not narcissistic condescension then I don’t know what is. Should I keep quoting you further up to prove my point? Psst… Drama Queen.

Take a hike dude lol, still love you and empathize with you as my brother in Adam, though in Christ I can’t say for sure (but I will one day). In the meantime, quit being a contentious prick picking a mental fight with those you can’t win against (not that this is about any of that, but since you started, I’m finishing it as immature as it is of me to feed into your peanut gallery crap). At least I’m owning up to my insults. I’m definitely taking Titus 3:10 more seriously when trying to argue with someone, especially on the internet. Let God be the ultimate judge, and the readers judge for themselves what (not who) is right.

You act like people can’t read in between the lines, as well as what’s already present in the very words that make them up. Anyone whose been following this discussion from any point can see what I’m saying regardless of their views surrounding my thesis. Sadly, this bridge has been burnt. Speaking of which, I’m burnt out trying put emphasis (through both bold and italics) on what’s visible for all to perceive. Next callers, please.

In the words of a wise, mackerel correctional officer under the sea: “Tell it to the Judge, Pinky.”

Who knows? I could be wrong and I always admit that rather than assert that I know everything. Maybe the Law of Jubilee will allow God to pardon us from any judgement at all, as you believe. Maybe Judgement Day will probably go a lil’ something like this (as I’m sure you and us all hope)

May God forgive me in the meantime for my mean words, and for you unintentionally mishandling my words. I hope you’ll find it in your heart to do also.

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Okay qaz, let me doubly apologize as I did let my emotions get the best of me. Rereading through the thread, I maintain my position, and my issue with you not fully illustrating my position, and not allowing the room for contextual reconciliation (though I forgive you for that, as I’m sure you forgive me for my wrathful, and quite hurtful comments that should’ve been thought about twice as I’m guilty for furthering the divide of our conversation).

The part of my position that you did accurately recall is my statements about post-mortem/divine judgement having horrific, even torturous (though not inherently “eternal”) implications based upon Scriptural analysis (that some agree with and some don’t), and I don’t deny that.

  • What I want to re-emphasize, though possibly to your dismay, is that in general (from both real life examples and Biblical principles), is that retribution/punishment and restoration/healing are not mutually exclusive as many think, and in fact, terms like pruning or correction could actually help bridge the divide that seems to exist on the topic of our God and his dealings with not only man (particularly those who willingly and knowingly follow Satan to the Lake of Fire), but as our Elder @JasonPratt might simply term them – “rebel angels,” and their offspring as well. The magnitude of sin is something beyond man to begin with. If you’d like, we can pick up from there. Blessings brother.

Working on responding to your last brilliant post but rereading this is very relevant being that passionate disagreement has ensued since you posted this. You’re an angel Zombie lol. Thanks again for being levelheaded.

The condition of hell is simply a separation from God. I have personally seen, talked with and been possessed by demons. I have also witnessed the dead in hell. It is all very real to me.

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Greetings Marc - Great job at sticking it out with qaz… I find your gracious responses more and more revealing in their underlying theological and scriptural underpinnings. Personally, I am in complete agreement with your thoughts and insights on the subject.
Pretty clear who has the “anger issue” here.

Many thanks.

Bruce Cooper

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“Make the best use of what’s in your power and take the rest as it happens.”-- Epictetus

First. I like to congratulate marcthedawn, for including some Sponge Bob videos. Perhaps he or she, is a candidate - for the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic, Holy Fool’s tradition?

The Eastern Orthodox/ Eastern Catholics have a different take on hell, as seen at:

The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that Heaven and Hell are relations to or experiences of God’s just and loving presence.[26][27] There is no created place of divine absence, nor is hell an ontological separation from God.[28] One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are dimensions of God’s intensifying presence, as this presence is experienced either as torment or as paradise depending on the spiritual state of a person dwelling with God.[26][29] For one who hates God and by extension hates himself as God’s image-bearer, to be encompassed by the divine presence could only result in unspeakable anguish.[30][31][32]

And an Anglican bishop and New Testament scholar, comes close to this with What Is Hell Like? Does It Even Exist? NT Wright on 100 Huntley Street (HD)

Here are a couple of interesting articles, from today’s Patheos evangelical newsletter:

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Interesting that Tom says ‘I’d like to be a Universalist’… :laughing:

“The choices we make” … :open_mouth:

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Simply? Hmm… I think there’s scriptural case for separation, but merely just that? Not so sure bud, but I get where you’re coming from. Please if you don’t mind, expound upon your personal experience and encounters with demons and/or the spirit realm. What are your thoughts on deliverance/exorcism? Have you been delivered and/or healed from such infestations? Have you then likewise cast out demons (in general response to having been possessed by them and “having conversations” with them – albeit knowing their tendencies toward deceit, half-truths, and outright, blatant lies)? What role does fasting/prayer play in deliverance and what experience do you have with preparational/intermittent fasting/prayer? Have you ever had an NDE/OBE? I’m actually seeking deliverance myself which is part of the reason I’m asking these loaded questions brother CoG.

Here are a couple footnotes and questions:

  • marcthedawn - Separated from God only in hell? Pastor Joshua Ryan Butler, makes a brilliant book regarding this and related issues. It’s entitled The Skeletons in God’s Closet: The Mercy of Hell, the Surprise of Judgment, the Hope of Holy War

  • childofgod. I’m curious about this aspect. If you are possessed by a demon/ demons, then how did you get un-possessed? Just a footnote here. Before the Roman Catholic Church conducts an exorcism, they first conduct a thorough medical and scientific investigation. Where they have medical professionals, investigate for signs of organic disease and psychosis. And conducting an exorcism, is not an easy task - from what I understand.

  • childofgod. Do you have any insight into WHY your visions are straightforward? But other Christian mystics, wrote about theirs - in symbolic or terse language? Like Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, or Jacob Boehme?

  • Question for everyone. In another forum thread, I posted Zombie Apocalypse [DOCU] . Where folks are actually preparing and training for it. And a comment from the YouTube audience asked: > “Question: If a Zombie apocalypse happened would the Zombies eat or fight each other as well as go for us?”…More info via the Christian visions at The coming zombie apocalypse and great tribulation. So my question is this. Wouldn’t Satan and all the evil angels, spend as much time fighting among themselves - as working havoc with us? And trying to out-seat Satan, as the “king of the hill”? And wouldn’t they have as many problems with ego - if not more so - then we do?

  • Or the devil is this super powerful, God like - bad dude. Question for everyone. In another forum thread, I posted Zombie Apocalypse [DOCU] . Where folks are actually preparing and training for it. And a comment from the YouTube audience asked: > “Question: If a Zombie apocalypse happened would the Zombies eat or fight each other as well as go for us?”…More info via the Christian visions at The coming zombie apocalypse and great tribulation. So my question is this. Wouldn’t Satan and all the evil angels, spend as much time fighting among themselves - as working havoc with us? And trying to out-seat Satan, as the “king of the hill”? And wouldn’t they have as many problems with ego - if not more so - then we do?

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I have had many O.B.E.'s. My testimony will answer the rest of your questions;

True Story of Christ & Salvation

Okay… demons, nephilim, anakim, gibborim… nothing to do with us. Probably symbolic. Not the reason for the flood (which destroyed Noah’s world, we can agree–and with it all those half-angelic giants–if they weren’t symbolic–which I kind of think they were). I’m not even going to talk about pre-Adamic creation. Let me just say, I think you’re taking all of this way too literally.

If these passages do have a literal supernatural giants in the highlands interpretation, ladies sleeping with bad-boy angels and having Rosemary’s baby and all, then, if they do, that interpretation is still inferior and subordinate to the many deep, meaningful, spiritual interpretations that the entire Bible is simply dripping with.

Sheol was used of the evil and the righteous dead. It does appear that queber meant simply grave. It was David who said to God, “If I make my bed in Sheol, behold Thou art there,” which for me, means that if David was right, God is even in Sheol–whether the residents perceive His presence or not. This kind of puzzled me. On the one hand, I’d been taught that Hell was just the one place God was not. On the other hand, I’d been taught that God was omnipresent. You can’t have it both ways, kiddies. God is in hell–or more to the point, hell is in God (where else would it be, since there IS nowhere else but within God? (who as I’ve mentioned, is everywhere–but not just everywhere–He IS the everywhere.)

And THAT is my understanding of hell. I do not believe there is a literal “lake of fire” outside the City (or inside the throne room, before the Throne of God either–where it is also depicted as the Crystal Sea). I believe that GOD is the LoF and that the LoF is also symbolized by the Bronze Sea/Laver of the Temple/Tabernacle. Bronze (and in the case of the Laver, bronze mirrors) symbolizes judgment and of course the purpose of the Laver/Sea is purification of the priests before entering the Holy Place and the immediate presence of God: the Holy of Holies. What does that say about those who are tormented in the LoF? Whether they like it or not, whether they are willing or not, the wicked are literally having the hell burned out of them. Let me be clear… I do NOT believe in any literal, physical flames, nor do I believe our God is a giant conflagration even though the scriptures do characterize Him as a “Consuming Fire.” This is symbolic. We do not worship campfires or burning buildings or forest fires as manifestations of God. We understand them as violent chemical reactions. But fire is SYMBOLIC of God, and in the scriptures, symbolic of purification.

You cannot literally burn literal spiritual beings with literal fire. You can torment and destroy evil by the presence of perfect holiness. Maybe this will hurt. But even what I am saying to you is symbolic. We 3-D beings cannot begin to comprehend the magnitude or magnificence of Eternity (who, if you think about it much, you will realize is God). That’s not to say we shouldn’t strive to understand–but we will ALWAYS be growing in our understanding. Since God is infinite and we are finite, we will always be drawing nearer to true comprehension of Him, but we will never fully exhaust the exploration of His endless richness.

That said, I do believe the LoF and/or Sheol, or whatever–is torment for the wicked–NOT because of what IT is, but because of what THEY are and because of the wickedness they still cherish in their hearts. When they genuinely and gratefully and trustingly relinquish the evil they have treasured within themselves, then it will be destroyed by the “fire” of God’s holiness. Will it hurt the man who clings to his wickedness? Well, yes, most likely–but any hurt is self-inflicted (because of the treasuring up of inequity in his heart) and the cure is available at his own discretion–immediately upon his release of the wickedness WHICH IS ITSELF THE CAUSE OF THE HURT. If God’s holiness triggers the anguish, should God cease to be holy? Should He withdraw His presence (or the sense of it) from the man whose only hope lies in that holiness?

So no, I don’t think that “eons of eons” portrays any specific length of “punishment” or “treatment” or whatever. I think it is, as we often ourselves use it, a colloquial expression meaning, “This could take a really long time.” It probably WILL take a very long time for some. For others, I’m guessing it won’t take very long at all. Maybe for most others, the mere sight of the face of the Anointed will bring about instant repentance and love and no torment whatsoever will be needed. At all. But if it IS needed, then to withhold it will be no mercy but rather very hatred.

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Hmm Miss Cindy, you’ve certainly given me a lot to think about and have made some starkly contrasting statements that point out whatever flaws in my thesis that seem to exist based upon my interpretive framework when approaching Scripture. Alas, there still exists a greater or lesser degree of separation between us on this issue, so I think we may not fully agree to the T regarding what you and I believe to be vital aspects of Christ’s mission, and the Gospel (and yet we both I’m sure agree on the urgency of it being spread and walked out until we die).

You say my views are too literal? Eh, I’m not sure how to respond to that allegation. I think the only thing I’ll say to that is there’s a difference between the words “literal” and “physical” though they imo, have been erroneously, interchangeably conflated by students of literature (particularly those who study the Holy Scriptures – usually progressive denominations – and also the Orthodox church)… You do sound like you have some Orthodox leanings in your wording and the structure of theo-philosophical themes you present ring familiarity with that tradition. Admittedly, the faith-based philosophy I subscribe to is a weak panentheistic/Palamite position which enriches and frames my 30,000 ft. view of God + our Universe (contained within the larger Omniverse) - this model implies a concern of (both) purely spiritual and purely physical “matters” which tend to overlap anyway – so again, I resonate with much of what you say about the diverse mystery of God’s omnipresence even in Sheol (which I think we both agree is a literal reality – albeit one beyond our human capability to comprehend 100%). What are your eschatological views, my dear?

So you don’t believe that the spiritual realm/world [including benevolent spirit beings/persons/entities with power to manipulate the physical – 1) i.e. angels, God | or malevolent spirit beings/persons/entities also having the power to manipulate the physical – 2) i.e. demons, Satan – the two main groups that have been warring since before mankind existed, for longer than humanity has existed] has an ongoing, literal relationship or impact on our world/realm? They have nothing to do with us?! I ghastly beg to differ Cindy, not so. One of the centerpieces of Yeshua’s ministry was delivering and healing people from demons by casting them out. Being obsessive over them? Sure that’s one extreme, but so is denying their reality and the fact that we are prospects for either good (God) or evil in the form of sin (Satan) every single day of our vaporous lives, imo. How one reacts to or interacts with that reality (regardless of its primary, usual imperceptibility to the 5 senses that rule our human ecology though the 4th wall breaks and will continue to break as God sees fit) is a case-by-case basis that we all must live through in spite of our biases, only by our own corroborating experiences (established out of the mouth of two or three witnesses - 2 Cor. 13:1; Deut. 17:6) as they are cross-checked to be supported by Scripture. Let me intermittently preface the rest of this by saying that many apocryphal scriptures (in this case the Book of Jubilees that fills in a lot for the Gen. 6 gap --) though maybe not 100% theologically agreeable as the 66 books are with one another, are still historically on the same playing field and have helped to gain insight on many seemingly confusing topics in Scripture, though they may not exactly be as inspired as the Canon of the 66 though that’s up for a heck of a debate that I can’t entirely have a voice for or against. This is about "testing all things" and “studying to show oneself approved,above all else.

I may be reading too much into it (meaning I could be absolutely wrong), but your tone seems to indicate a subconscious flippancy towards a non-Sethite interpretation of Gen 6. when the variants of the giants (Rephaim) and other unnatural, hybrid monsters of renown (Nephilim) were created by the sons of God (bene’ ha elohim) mating with the daughters of men. Granted, I think the Pre-Adamic world is an even more mystified subject than this one that’s not necessarily etched in stone so I’ll give you the right to throw that out the window (though not without requesting that you at least consider the possibility by asking, praying, and seeking for the evidences – not just from me – but other people who make a plausible case for its existence since it fills in many gaps – 1) https://godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-i/chapter-5-the-seven-ages-in-gods-plan-for-all/ \ 2) http://www.kjvbible.org/satan.html). In the meantime, what do you do with Goliath who was 6 cubits tall (9 feet) - 1 Sam. 17:4 - and also had 6 fingers and 6 toes? King Og of Bashan, the last survivor of the Rephaite species who had a bed of iron 13 feet long?! I don’t want anyone to perceive our discourse as being hyperbolic gnosticism vs. hyper-religious conspiracy sensationalism so I want to understand you as I hope you do me, as much as possible. My position is not void of historical or patristic precedent.

What are your thoughts on OT judgments and the display of divine retribution? Wrestling principalities/spiritual warfare? What about the holy wars of ancient Israel and the terror/killings committed by God or the Israelites by his command? Personally, I think a proper exegesis of Gen. 6 that factors in the antediluvian, barbaric, misogynistic, exceedingly wicked genetic hybrid mutants who were the sadistic, tyrannical, bastard posterity from the Watchers’ (Jude 1:6) and human women’s sexual relations incurring Noah’s Deluge (which is speculatively where demons as opposed to fallen angels originate - being the unclean, undead spirits of these monsters who died roaming the dry places of the Earth (not to mention God’s subsequent disdain for any man, woman, and child of the Gentile/enemy nations of Israel - who were still given ample time to repent before being ethically removed/displaced through ethnic/environmental cleansing and physical warfare by Israel, for their safety/prosperity and also for the general populaces’ safety and preservation as well during that Age). Do you simply:

  1. Deem Scripture as we have it is as not infallible and/or inerrant? If so, I’d agree that there’s a ton of wiggle room for that idea since we have no autographs of Scripture but apparently the heresy of Marcionism and its splinter ideologies spread like wildfire back then (even though the copies used then were less tainted), with a growing number of proponents who are rapidly resurgent today lol – OR do you…

  2. Somewhat like our beloved Origen who sometimes erred in sincerity, allegorize/‘spiritualize’ Biblical narratives/themes away that could “hurt God’s reputation” but would’ve been better left to speak plainly for themselves? Regardless, there are those from certain traditions who will deny most forms of _syncretic gnosis but then turn around and argue that there’s evidence for the legitimacy of some form of mere “‘Christian’ gnosticism”. They claim Yeshua handed down preserved “secret-dual” teachings/doctrines to his favorite disciples (i.e. the Gospel of Thomas), then some of those same disciples who then became Apostles similarly handing down “secret-dual” teaching/doctrines of their own to their specific confidant disciples (i.e. the Apocalypse of Peter – which apparently has an original/authentic Greek copy and a Coptic translation of that copy with some “forgeries”) who then themselves, reluctantly yet zealously handed those down to their “initiate” congregations, in addition to their own writings/epistles/teachings (i.e. 1 Clement). So who to believe and whose to blame for all this confusion? More than likely Satan (Matt. 13:18-30). Everything’s not fully clear yet, but all positions should be equally, and indiscriminately tested under interdisciplinary meta-theologies such as the eager, historical, etymological skepticism wrought by textual criticism (which I myself am no expert on by any stretch of imagination).
    Symbols generally speaking can and do represent literal – sometimes tangible/physical things
    but who wants waste time going through those? I’m all ears to you Sis. I’m sure you spent enough time crossing paths with my metaphysical statements/theories throughout the thread so maybe those’ll answer some of your questions about "physical vs spiritual" “substance” which are both literal realities but nonetheless operate on two different yet similar sets of quantum mechanics, realms/dimensions (some theoretical physicists say there >> at least < < 10 which corresponds to the Enochian cosmology of there being 10 heavens), and wavelengths/frequencies (the countless list of subatomic energies and substructures like quarks, leptons, bosons, and photons which comprise ALREADY invisible, inaudible, intangible, altogether undetectable “matter” including vibrations of light, sound, consciousness, etc. that still technically materialize to a certain extent). I’m no physicist myself, just trying to give some credibility to my claims.

I like a lot of what you say, as some of these explanations you’ve offered about the LoF’s nature and purpose have been surmised by a few other folks here and there, so you do have a small but growing minority group making those connections to say for example, the Bronze Sea/Crystal Sea/LoF, and coming to conclusions similar to you (https://youtu.be/mkfwkyKon2w). Thanks again for your thoughts Sister @Cindy_Skillman.

I was possessed twice by the same demon. Both possessions totaled no more than 5 minutes. An exorcism was not necessary. The demon had left on his own accord and simply masqueraded as God/Jesus. Errors were clearly noted and his deceit was short lived. Not all possessions are like a horror movie. Possessions that are undetectable by others are not uncommon throughout scripture. Only by the words he spoke could anyone tell that I was possessed.

Others Christian mystics do not concern me. God or His Son is not going give you a vision that you are not going to eventually understand. And they are not in need of an interpreter. Visions are tailored for the individuals understanding. Although, you may not immediately understand the vision. This is because they speak of the past, present, and future. You may not understand what they fully meant until the future has past. It is up to the individual to interpret their own visions. You would be mistaken if you believe otherwise.

PS: where the lying, deceiving demons and humans of the underworld are concerned, you my need some guidance in interpreting visions, but this does not apply to God, Jesus, the angels and saints in heaven.

Also, there are some that are more spiritually discerned than others. My spiritual discernment has come to me through the Holy Spirit and approximately 20 years of experience with the spirit world.

The thing I noticed about Christian mystics, like Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Jacob Boehme…is they tried to keep their visions private. Jacob - for example - had folks that betrayed his trust. And published his visions, even though he didn’t want them published. See Jakob Böhme - Wiki:

The book was given the name Aurora by a friend; however, Böhme originally wrote the book for himself and it was never completed.[8] A manuscript copy of the unfinished work was loaned to Karl von Ender, a nobleman, who had copies made and began to circulate them. A copy fell into the hands of Gregorius Richter, the chief pastor of Görlitz, who considered it heretical and threatened Böhme with exile if he continued working on it.

Same goes for saints and holy people…both within the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches…and those outside the Cristian church.

In other words, they don’t advertise, sell tickets or produce radio, TV and Internet shows. My ,Protestant mom never advertised, the gift of prophesy - she was born with. Father A…the Roman Catholic priest, who can hear the voice of God and has the gift of healing…doesn’t advertise. Neither did Duke Big Feather and the Two Feathers Medicine Clan, whom I hung around for years.

Folks like Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff advertise. Sure, there are some folks like Katie Souza Ministries, that has a TV show. And she once was in prison. And I believe she is real and God is leading her.

Now in my Chanupa link, it says this:

With this in mind, understand that most Native spirituality people know about today is inaccurate. Most Natives who live traditional lives today do so out of the spotlight. You will NOT find them at conferences, seminars and powwows smudging people for a price. You will NOT find them charging people for sweat lodges or having business cards with titles of Shaman or Medicine Man/Woman. In fact, you will be hard pressed to have them admit their role in the community.

And if you study the article carefully, it will show you the Christian connection. In fact, ALL article links in my profile, SHOW the Christian connection.

Let’s look at 2 contemporary visions. The first is contemporary Old Catholic Church mystic -Tiffany Snow, at Armageddon - Who What Where When Why How. In this case, I know her husband…who is an Old Catholic Church priest. Then there is one regarding the tribulation and the The coming zombie apocalypse and great tribulation. The second person has other unrelated persons, giving visions on zombies and the tribulation. Oh, gee whiz - you might say. These CAN’T be true. They don’t MATCH my visions.

I’m agnostic when it comes to visions, miracles, healings, etc. - to people who “advertise”. Unless I REALLY know them well or someone close to them. I’m more open to people who DON’T advertise. And if pressed about the miracles, healings, etc., they point the finger - to God as the doer. But they are like the A-Team on TV and the movies. You won’t find them unless you are led to them. And they want you to find them.

Let’s end with a Q And A, from the Calvinist site - Got Questions:

When something new to most of us, such as the OP of this thread, is posted, I like to ask a couple of questions - and in fact MTD has solicited such. :wink: So, MTD:

  1. As a Christian believer, what difference has this line of thinking made to your Christian ‘praxis’?
  2. What is the desired effect on us that you are advocating?
    Thanks, hope that’s classy enough for ya!
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