The Evangelical Universalist Forum

2nd Thoughts On ChristianPUR (Purgatorial Universal Restoration)

Evangelical Universalism
#69

Thanks for the questions @anon12438761, I appreciate you for at the bare minimum seeking to engage and understand my view, as well as helping me reflect and think it about more deeply, and analytically. Here goes an eyeful (and if you read out loud like I do sometimes, a mouthful and an earful):

  1. As far as how it helps my praxis, for me it reinstates the divine fusion of the immanency, intensity, intimacy, and immensity flowing from God’s authoritative, wrathful purpose of judgment in its fullness but also manages to co-mingle those attributes with his indescribably nonhuman love, that selflessly, knowledgeably (in His sovereign, equivalently coalescing, molinstic and synergistic omniscience) honors the highest, most dignified view and fervorous expectation/pursuit/learning experience of His human creatures’ volition towards their own optimal well-being… By extension, respecting and restoring a God-centric admiration of themselves and others having been made to bear |His/<Her>/Their| collective image and likeness as both man and woman (even in their Adamic depravity), without God discontinuing Their unbreakable, communal bond, even the majestic unity and integrity of |\His/\Her/Their| intrapersonal/interpersonal holiness within Each Other [(that’s for all you hardcore Trinitarian theists out there :large_blue_circle::red_circle::white_circle: @JasonPratt
    This rings especially true of those like myself who assent to a historic but oft-forgotten minority that stood on a “Familial-gender-based” model of the Godhead – with the Holy/Set-Apart Spirit, ‘the Ruach-Hakodesh (in Paleo and Babylonian Hebrew)’ believed by some Judaites/Israelites (pre-Exlic and post-Exilic), and some Church Fathers to be 'Wisdom’ or ‘Sophia (in koine Greek)’ of the Book of Proverbs (including some Intertestamental scripture plus some NT apocryphal and psuedepigraphal literature), the Inspiration-Source guiding the original, autographed writings of the Bible’s authors and eventual canonization of them as Holy Scriptures/‘El Shaddai, the Many-Breasted One’ of Israel/‘Mother’ of Yeshua/‘Wife-Helper-Consort-Comorter- ‘Shekinot’ Glory of Yahweh/the Personified Intercessor of our prayers to Heaven, the Convicting Consciousness pervading our conscience, the Discerning Presence of our hearts, the Presiding Regenerator, Sealer, Adopter and Sanctifier of believers’ ‘above-new-birth’/salvation in its three phases (justification, sanctification, glorification), the Divine-Feminine-Energy-Conduit’ proceeding from the Father and the Son, leading us into all Truth/the co-supreme but willingly subordinate ‘Eloah (in Hebrew)’ or ‘God-dess,’ the Fiery Dove descending and bestowing Her manifold powers, gifts, fruits, and baptism/the Spirit of God Whom 'brooded/hovered’ over the ‘submerged, watery chaos and darkness’ of Gen 1:2 – which would render/order the Filoque Clause - ‘1) Father, 2) Holy Spirit, 3) and Son’ rather than '1) Father, 2) Son, 3) and Holy Spirit]    ’"

– thus I conjecture [(but don’t necessarily contend) that the even if (only) temporarily, the consequential stakes for each baby goat are intentionally, comparatively severe as Satan’s/the fallen angels’/ demons’ punishment for sin - Matt. 25:41 - likewise will be the reward, individualized for each baby sheep who follows the Good Shepherd’s voice just as He Himself was obedient to His Heavenly Father’s voice by being the Lamb of God (John 2:19), so that there will be varying degrees of resurrection glory (1 Cor. 15:37-44), crowns (James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; 2 Tim. 4:1-9), heavenly mansions/treasures (John 14:2; Matt 6:20), Millenial Kingdom reigning privileges and allotments (2 Tim 4:10-15), etc. according to Christ’s judgement/assessment of their works - 1 Cor. 3:12-19)] since God is no respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11).
From here this gives a proposition for one to hastily develop and facilitate a relationship with God that includes obligatorily affirming, and positively revering His positional role(s) as the Executive-Judicial Creator, Disciplinary Father of spirits, Potter of the clay, maker and owner of souls, on this side of space-time (and alternative sides of it as well). The proposition rests in the context of heavenly/celestial reward and/or punishment. This helps me pursue the ’Narrow Road’, to maintain a healthy fear of God’s (f)rightful, meticulous judgments (which are preventative, pruning, and punitive in nature) - the first layer of this model (starting in order of shallowest to deepest) covers (both high and low) levels that constitute the violation vs. the veneration of His natural (physical) laws (based on cosmological cause and effect), as well as basic moral laws (some of which have been expressly written in Scripture while others are uniquely situational and reflexive in their practical implications). It humbles me knowing that I (even as a believer), at my worst am in danger of backsliding into Gehenna fire, and pushes me to uphold God’s righteous vengeance [(even upon myself when harming my temple, potentially someone elses’ welfare, or simply defaming and humiliating God before God’s-selves (the “three who bear record in heaven” - 1 John 5:7), Their angelic council, Satan’s fallen angelic council, and humanity through rebellion – which is “as the sin of witchcraft” - 1 Sam. 15:23)].

It helps me modestly regard myself and mankind in our current lowly, though special estate within the sphere of creation, staying woefully sober-minded through imprecatory prayer and contemplation, like King David did frequently in his Psalms. “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” though God can and does permissively exhibit mercy in considering the nuances of one’s ignorance (beit involuntary or willful), whether in dismissal and/or contribution towards one’s sentence or term served in spirit jail/prison Hades (including other related “state vs. federal” government penal/justice system related concepts like parole, probation, etc.). The following layers get deeper based upon one’s relative accountability and responsibility determined by whether they are physically/mentally/spiritually able (or not) to fulfill God’s evidential, measuring rod of:

a) personal commands [as heard/seen/perceived through but not limited per se to our human vessels’ inward and outward faculties and/or processes – from common sense/reason, conscience, emotion, intellect, signs, visions, wonders (miracles – including healing and deliverance), praise and worship (or contempt and denigration), bodily or mental confirmation, messengers – whether human, demonic, or angelic, – unceasing prayer, prayerful reading (and rigorous study) of Scripture, sincere repentance, fasting, spiritual warfare and intercession, (revelatory) microcosmic prophecy fulfillment – tailored for each individual, and ultimately the Holy Spirit whom does use all but also many more than those aforementioned tools to bring and/or keep one under the gift of providential, prevenient, potently purifying grace made alive through the gift of (the) faith(fulness) abiding/indwelling in/of/towards/for/from Christ, thus not quenching/grieving the Holy Spirit of Whom seals us till the Day of Redemption (Eph. 4:30)]

b) both indirect commands and testifying of witnesses [(observation, academic or literary study of Scripture, (revelatory) macrocosmic prophecy fulfillment, etc.)] where applicable.

  1. The desired effect that I would like to see (with the aid of godly edification in the transparent lives of genuine, mature believers in Christ as our forerunners and elders in the faith) is the fruit of people receiving help to reach an understanding of the spiritual aspect accompanying the grand scheme of things which are beyond our control but also to keep in mind a compelling case to actively follow God’s leadership in affording us free choice over the few things we seemingly do have in our control, trusting the revealed blueprint and timetable of the Transcendental Planner (Macro-and-Micromanager), Overseer, Placer (Destroyer, Restorer, and Rearranger) of all the mosaic details surrounding this current Earth-realm (of this current Epoch, from its Beginning until Now, and to its future Consummation) whose limitations we are unwillingly, subjected residents under (Rom. 8:20), encouraged and at times mandated to cooperate with, on this plane of existence (being in the world but not of it - John 17:16)
#70

Understood. Thanks for the answers!

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#71

No problem Dave. Thanks again for asking these thought-provoking questions, and feel free to drop by, ask more questions, or even add more of your own thoughts to counterbalance. Much love, Elder. :purple_heart: OH and charmingly classy as always! @anon12438761 :sunglasses:

#72

Okay folks so it looks like my intention for this thread is coming true just as I wished (Thank you Lord :pray::palms_up_together:) and I’m praying it’ll continue to expand with more views and multi-personal dialogues where we all get to know and understand one another. That being said, I’m still working on replying to many of you like my brothers @Holy-Fool-P-Zombie and @Child_of_God , and I am more than anxious that some of my answers may be going over some of your heads (including my own when re-reading my posts) because of my unusual paragraphic structures in their enormous lengths and unnecessarily expansive (somewhat ungrammatical, unfamiliar) verbiage. I understand how what I say could be simply misread for those reasons alone. Forgive me for that; please and just bear with me and I promise to do the same for you all :frowning:.

Please let me know if you want me to rephrase things in more laymen’s terms and be more concise as brother @anon12438761 has constructively advised for me to do. If you don’t mind, entertain this link to a Messianic fellowship group who has similar though not exactly the same views as I do and might do better in concisely and clearly getting to the heart of the matter, imo. Disclaimer: They do believe in the literal existence of “Hell”/Hades’ as a >> temporary << spirit prison/holding cell for unsaved men but they ALSO affirm the Salvation of ALL Mankind through Christ’s sacrifice, holding both concepts together in closely-knit integrity, and honesty. http://www.nccg.org/hell.html

#73

Marc, first–to get this out of the way–please don’t call me “my dear” or similar. I’m not rebuking you–just making a request. I don’t like it. You didn’t know, so I’m simply telling you. You haven’t done anything wrong. No apology needed or called-for. I know some people like that, but I just don’t.

So, to the topic… No, I do not flippantly dismiss the whole angelic/demonic/human connection. I have thought about it deeply through the decades and I’ve come to the conclusion that it doesn’t much connect with us in such a way that we personally need to somehow “combat” demons. (Unless we consider that the “demons” we personally need to combat are our own selfishness/unlove toward others, and on the other end of the spectrum (or maybe not so far removed after all), our own self-hatred and despondency. After (really/genuinely) much consideration, I’ve decided that I do not believe in the Nephelim, etc. as physical human/demonic hybrids who produced the Anakim, etc. The Anakim are an important part of the story, but that doesn’t require them to have literally existed.

I think that the OT is the story of the Hebrew people and their journey into a more and more true understanding of who God is and what He is like and the nature of their relationship with Him. I came to this on my own. (Though I grew up in the Methodist church, I’ve had a VERY literal view of scripture for the great majority of my years–which will soon number ~60. I’ve never, since age 16 when I got my driver’s license and could choose where to attend church, attended or belonged to a progressive church, nor do I remember very much at all about the teaching of the Methodist church–except that I do remember disagreeing with a number of things.) The main impetus in my adopting this point of view was my first chronological reading of the Old Testament, which did not happen until I was in my 50’s.

If you do read the OT (as best as we can determine) in the order in which it was given, you’ll likely be struck by way the Hebrews’ understanding of God seems to blossom through the centuries. They start out with this localized, tribal god who requires sacrifice and rituals, but by the time of Isaiah, Hosea, Micah, Ezra, Jeremiah and their contemporaries, this (for most of them) limited, local god has become the God of the whole earth and, Sacrifice and offerings He has NOT desired. Micah writes, “He has shown thee, oh man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God?” What happened to “Slay them all from the least to the greatest”? Israel’s UNDERSTANDING of God has changed.

Israeli history, like the other histories of the time, was written as a combination of exaggerated events and heroic stories which, while they may or may not have happened, were nevertheless true in their own way. (A more contemporary example of this might be George Washington and the Cherry Tree; Did it happen? Probably not. Does it teach a valuable lesson? A vital truth? Absolutely.) So the conquest of Cana? It has been ONLY in relatively recent times that the Christian church has viewed these scriptures as teaching history rather than telling a story about the conquest and driving out (or not) of evil from individual lives and from society. There are Jewish rabbis (prominent ones) who privately deny that the whole Exodus story is historical. Archaeologists would agree with them. These scholars say that it doesn’t matter whether a million Israelites left Egypt (the world/flesh/devil) to travel across the desert (another symbolic icon) to reach the promised land where they had to drive out the evil inhabitants (wars of which there ought to be and has yet to be found at least some evidence) in order to cleanse the land of wickedness. They say that if Moses and a few of his followers came to Canaan and raised up a spiritual movement among the population, that does not diminish the epic tale one bit. Are they right? I don’t know–but if they ARE right, that does not diminish my regard for nor respect toward the scriptures. In fact, it increases it. Why?

Because it solves the enigma of the seemingly disparate depictions of the personality of God in the Old vs the New Testaments. Jesus tells His disciples “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father…”

Can you see Jesus saying, “Kill them all from the newborn babies to the oldest doddering grandfathers”? I CAN see this IF I look at the Joshua Wars the way the church has historically understood them until very recent times–as symbolic of God’s people destroying sin within our lives. The Israelites weren’t able to do that. WE aren’t able to do that. Jesus came to deal with sin in the flesh through the sacrifice of His own flesh–not to the Father, but as a means of bringing US into His family through the path of death and resurrection. You can read about this in Romans 6-8 as well as in other of Paul’s writings.

Our relationships with God and with one another and with those enemies (whom we are commanded to love so that we will be like our Father in Heaven) are the important things. Love is what matters–not our attempts to understand pantheons of angelic and demonic and hybrid beings accessible (if in any way) only through rare and unpredictable spiritual experiences. God doesn’t usually deal with most of us in that way and honestly, if I started seeing demons and I couldn’t get rid of them, I would absolutely consider seeking out a medical team.

I don’t deem scripture as flawed. It is exactly what it was meant to be. To start with, it is the story of Israel and her journey into a greater and greater understanding of God, and beyond that, it is the story of Jesus’ ministry as seen through the eyes of His disciples–whether first-hand or “as told to” narratives. The epistles are letters written by the apostles and possibly others to offer advice to the churches, and the Revelation to John is an apocalyptic missive written to churches where there were people who would understand the symbolism in it (which we today cannot and do not–not completely, at least). The writers were inspired by God to write, and they wrote. God did not dictate word for word. They wrote as they were inspired to write, in their own words. Just like any devoted, mature, spiritually sensitive modern-day saint might write as the Spirit inspired her/him. I think for the most part, those who saw the Son in the flesh and those who knew these apostles first-hand were in a better position (in some ways at least) to write as God would have them to write. Nevertheless, there is much written AFTER those times which is also well worth reading and studying. The Bible is a wonderful resource. It is not a god. It is not perfect–how can it be, when we must interpret it through our own infinitely fallible ability to understand correctly?

I know this doesn’t answer all your points, but I’ll let this go for now. I’ve already written far too many words to ask you to plow through. :wink:

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#74

Cindy, let me start off responding by first of all making restitution for any of your views I may have misdirected in the onslaught of this very passionate, but all the more vital discussion. Secondly, allow me to unveil my upset disposition by taking time to make an appeal to your forgiveness and cordial graces by apologetically stating, it was my mistake to address you as “my dear,” and would like to say I’m deathly regretful for calling you that, albeit unbeknownst of your disliking of that specific term of endearment (as I hope it didn’t come off as passive-aggressive or patronizing as that was the furthest from what I meant to convey). Thank you for continuing this conversation despite any verbal grievances that exist in my initial response to your post. You are most graceful and blessed for that.

I also didn’t mean to imply that you personally had any association with the traditions of any of those theological systems that I mentioned (i.e. progressive denominations), only that your phraseology reminded me of the general opinions’ and groupthink among them at large (though I’m sure you were just trying rectify the fact that you in fact were raised in, and thru time, meandered among many Christian traditions, none of which I had mentioned spot on, so thanks for that insightful correction; 'twas informative and edifying).
I’ll always be willing to read and reply to what you (or anyone else) has written, no matter the how terse or vast the post itself is. Heck, you did it for me, so why shouldn’t I for you Sis (it is okay to call you Sis, right)? You sharing your age (and wisdom thereof) has definitely put me in my place, respecting your position in relation to me, which qualifies you, even if imperfectly so, an elder in the faith for which I humbly thank you for your participation in, contribution to, and testimony for the cause of Christ for all these years.

Jesus’ affirmation, reinterpretation, and elevation of Torah principles seems to have created a broad number of schools of thought, which in this day and age are limitless… so they can’t all be right… or can they? See, my thing is that I have no problem with allegorical/symbolic readings of Scripture but not to the point that they take away from the face-value narrative at hand, which in itself requires a deeper, critical study to understand the historicity of the theology it was trying to convey. I hear you loud and clear. Where I’ll differ with most folks is that I can unabashedly say that ancient Israel, at best, was henotheistic ideologically and monotheistic in practice (or vice versa) from the start. At worst, their shifts towards practicing the idolatrous pagan polytheism committed by their geographical neighbors (against God’s decree), caused them to worship demons, foreshadowing most of those interrelated concepts to get confusing for both Biblical and secular historians/textual critics who no better than us commoners, don’t agree on everything. Even God acknowledged the existence of other gods, some of whom were part of His heavenly council that had their own geographical/geological allotments to preside over, and also fallen gods who occasionally showed up to report their daily activities, like Satan in the Book of Job.

I most certainly concur with your inference that Scripture, as we have it at least is not as KJVonlyists for example would say, the “infallible/inerrant Word of God” but I do still nonetheless consecrate it as the “words of God (through fallible/errant men) and words of men on behalf of God, under His inspiration,” which as far as I’m concerned is good enough for me if we want to put any faith in its testimony and through the Holy Spirit, must at least be willing to wrestle with the fragments of its contents in our fallible but no less God given minds and hearts. I don’t worship the Bible (the copies of copies of copies of the original manuscripts) or any book for that matter, but I think there’s gradually increasing evidence for the Bible’s subject matters (in whatever translation/transliteration that exists), as they have stood the test of time despite accidental and deliberate corruption during its’ infinite transmissions; possessing historical reliability of which I think God did at bare minimum preserve the essentials, which impels us to mildly deify it as having a sense of continuity, internal consistency leading to “perspicuity” as some fundamentals say, and spiritual authority in place of modern day men and women, many of whom are not merely fallible/errant but “exceedingly” so in their blatant wickedness, for both personal and worldwide agendas. I think Satan’s rule has become more wrought in treachery and deception (even of the “Elect”), in this day, and age.

The OT interprets the NT and NT interprets the OT, they testify of themselves. I hold to the conviction that the original autographs are somewhere out there being sold for the highest bid, and when the time comes, will be a witness against the institutional hoards of evil elite men and women who have been doing their best to invalidate and curtail God’s prophecies (against them) within (as well as outside of) the Canon, as part of Satan’s plan in deceiving the whole world (which God more or less has allowed/predestined), leaving us believers to be humiliated scapegoats, just as Christ and his disciples were in their day. I’ll never legitimize the hateful antagonism of the world, though I will offer compassion and understanding towards’ sincerely seeking unbelievers (even within the Christian world – as I hope to be offered the same consolation to fight the good fight of faith). The stupidity of God is more spiritually sound and sensible than the wisdom of men. It’s through the foolishness of preaching that men are saved, though its not the only way. All I ask henceforth, is why not trust other religious texts/faiths versus the Christian one? What makes Christ special to you, or any of us? I ask this as only partly rhetorical, if that’s even possible. Let me recapitulate that I have absolutely no problem with metaphorical readings of Scripture (since technically, none of it was written to us 21st century peoples anyway but I believe was written for us which ironically backtracks to how we apply it to ourselves), or gleaning moral truths/applicable lessons, in fact, I would argue that a literal reading (though not to the exclusion of other types) should be the first or primary pair of lenses we use, keeping genre and literary devices in mind. That, to me, is the most ingenuous way to read it to even be able to form other midrash upon (and many rabbi scholars will agree that it is best to use a 4-fold method of Hebraic exegesis acronymed PaRDES _ which begins with a P’shat - or simple, literal reading of the text - http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/pardes.htm). @Cindy_Skillman._ After that, one can feel free to internalize it any way they choose, but if one is seeking meaning from the text with the Holy Spirit’s assistance (let alone one’s own conscience), they won’t be able to help but be impacted by it (either negatively or positively), no matter what conclusion She (the Set-Apart Spirit) leads them to (or scarily enough, what they think they’re being led by the Spirit to believe - 2 Thess. 2:11).

A most important question has just passed my mind: With the freedom to interpret it symbolically, do you at any rate hold to or regard a literal, historical testimony that affirms the Life, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ of Nazareth, as actual events that occurred in the 1st century?

I’m curious to know your personal musings on eschatological matters. I’m very partial-preterist myself and believe in multiple fulfillments of prophetic Scripture (which is another reason why I can agree with some of what you say, but also ascertain to the imminency of what many of us call the “End Times.” )

#75

http://spiritword.net/Text/pf1yetzer.pdf - The first few paragraphs of this ring true (as does the whole article) and I think they would also for anyone that’s honest with themselves.

Basic premise - Not every inclination that we think we get “from God,” for either “good” or “bad” as we see it, is in reality “from God.” Very sobering thoughts for all of us to prayerfully consider.

#76

Since this subtopic was brought up…Here’s the take of the Calvinist site - Got Questions:

The first paragraph is extremely important :slight_smile:

Answer: There are two primary errors when it comes to spiritual warfare—over-emphasis and under-emphasis. Some blame every sin, every conflict, and every problem on demons that need to be cast out. Others completely ignore the spiritual realm and the fact that the Bible tells us our battle is against spiritual powers. The key to successful spiritual warfare is finding the biblical balance. Jesus sometimes cast demons out of people; other times He healed people with no mention of the demonic. The apostle Paul instructs Christians to wage war against the sin in themselves (Romans 6) and warns us to oppose the schemes of the devil (Ephesians 6:10–18).

The key is to seek balance!

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#77

@Holy-Fool-P-Zombie brother I love you so! You are without a shadow of a doubt keeping the whole of this conversation within an equitable distribution of opposing ideas, maintaining the balance needed for us to learn something from one another. I hope that your presence does not leave this thread for a millisecond, and also, as stated before, your posts are worthy of deliberation and unbiased response that I plan on giving you. I appreciate you playing the part of “monkey in the middle,” so to speak. You are a comforting mediator who like me, tries to seek for the needle in the haystack (or the hay in the needlestack, depending upon the circumstances).

I have been more recently realizing that the Devil, many times is only the extra push towards evil that men themselves have already devised in their own fleshly hearts and imaginations (myself included). You’re right, the Devil isn’t to blame for everything. We undoubtedly have our part to play in this cosmic war, for or against the forces of good and evil, in and of ourselves. Thank you once again. :first_quarter_moon:

#78

“True happiness is to enjoy the present without anxious dependence on the future.”-- Seneca

Here’s some more questions, I’ve shared in another thread here:

  • Suppose someone describes their spiritual experiences here. How do we know, they are not the result of an organic disease or psychosis? Or come from a demonic source? Or a side effect, of some prescribed or unprescribed pharmaceuticals? Or if real and are from a divine source…should they be interpreted literally or figuratively? Or some combination thereof? In cases of zombies, more than one unrelated persons - have had recent visions regarding them (Christian centric, end-times visions). But should we regard them literally, like what might happen…in AMC’s The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead? And let’s say 2 or more persons, have RADICALLY different visions. Perhaps even OPPOSING visions. But we ALL agree, there’s not a scientific or demonic explanation for them. How is the average person, supposed to know the truth - of what these visions convey?

  • Is the Devil is some super powerful, God like bad dude? Question for everyone. In another forum thread, I posted Zombie Apocalypse [DOCU] . Where folks are actually preparing and training for it. And a comment from the YouTube audience asked: > “Question: If a Zombie apocalypse happened would the Zombies eat or fight each other as well as go for us?”…More info via the Christian visions at The coming zombie apocalypse and great tribulation. So my question is this. Wouldn’t Satan and all the evil angels, spend as much time fighting among themselves - as working havoc with us? And trying to out-seat Satan, as the “king of the hill”? And wouldn’t they have as many problems with ego - if not more so - then we do?

“I wish my name was Cobb. Then they would send over a Cobb salad.”-- Shirley Temple

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#79

That makes several of us!

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#80

If everyone kept their visions private, we would have no knowledge of the Holy Trinity. It is the will of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that we know them and their works. Without such revelations being known to mankind we would not even be aware of salvation and we would die and suffer the fate of hell…

Revelations 12:11. “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony."

#81

That’s why we have Holy Scripture, the historical creeds and the teachings of the mainline churches (i.e. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant). What do visions add or replace, that the previously mentioned elements - fail to accomplish?

#82

We would not even have scripture, if God did not reveal Himself through visions, dreams, and His word. God is not dead, He, and Jesus still reveal Themselves to people. The Bible would not exist if people kept private the revelations received by Father God and Jesus.

We all fall short of the glory of God. And no single Church teaches the complete truth. Jesus is the Savior of all mankind. And the possibility of salvation does reach all mankind. I can tell you that salvation of the unfaithful dead in hell can occur by offering up good works for the atonement of their sins. This is information that I have acquired from the Author of Salvation Himself.

#83

To be fair to the churches, certain churches …like the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church…do claim to have the full truth, of what is revealed. You are asking what comes first, the chicken or the egg., However God spoke to mankind, he did primarily by Holy Scripture. But I would add the Wesleyan Quadrilateral and Sacred tradition - to the mix.

There’s nothing wrong with visions, mind you. And if we are certain, there’s not a scientific or demonic explanation - to the visions a person has. Then we have the problem, that different valid visions, can appear to be contradictory. Or we have visions in the Bible i.e. Revelations), that have many theological perspectives regarding it.

Bottom line, Child of God. Don’t expect me - or others here…to disregard established theological perspectives…because of visions you had…or Old Catholic Church mystic, Tiffany Snow had…Or Almighty Wind had (with zombies and the tribulation)…or Jacob Boehme (my favorite Christian mystic, by the way) had…Etc…Etc.

#84

It’s right there in scripture that we all fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The Churches are not perfect and thus not exempt from this piece of scripture regardless of what they claim.

I am Roman Catholic. And I believe as they do. Atonement can be made through good works for the believer who dies of a mortal sin. Only, I take the Lord’s glory, love and mercy a bit further…I believe that any and all of the dead can be saved by good works.

#85

No, you don’t believe as they do. Otherwise, you would embrace Roman Catholicism fully. You quote a bible verse, out of context…Then what you are saying, would invalidate all Paul and the apostles…were trying to do…with the first churches. And NO church or theologian - historical or contemporary - would say to abandon churches, because of some scriptural verses.

What you have is a theological perspective, that works for you. But the Eastern Orthodox and Protestant church bodies, have a different take - on what works are about in James (see Justification (theology) - Wiki). And you can’t say something is true, because of experiences you had. Because other historical and contemporary Christian mystics and visionaries, might have experiences - that appear to teach something else.

#86

You are correct in saying that I do not embrace Roman Catholicism fully. I do not wish to argue this point, but there are few Catholics that due. You say that I quote scripture out of context, yet there is not one clergyman, theologian, not even the Pope, etc. that would not confess to being a sinner and falling short of the glory of God. The Churches are ran by these people and as humans, are subject to error. The Apostles would not be in error because their teacher was the Son of God Himself. Not that I do not believe in the possibility, but even you with your Zombie Apocalypse go outside Church teachings.

#87

That is true. Many folks here have theologies, that deviate from what I call the historical creeds…and theologies that deviate from a normal statistical, bell shaped curve - regarding theology and philosophy.

When it comes to the Zombie Apocalypse, my “official” position here is this. Different folks have visions of the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. So you can’t say their visions aren’t true and yours are…since they also claim to be Christian. And this is the most probable, end-times model. Akin to the AMC shows, The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead.

Besides, since I have an “offbeat” theological element…I tend to fit in more here, as a hopeful universalist. And would probably get an “official stamp of approval”, from the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic Holy Fool’s tradition. :wink:

Then the apostles must have produced Holy Scripture correctly. And perhaps Sacred Tradition also. But you imply that NO theologian, No church, and Nobody here - has gotten the understanding correct. Because everyone is a sinner, imperfect and Christ is NOT present with them. Well, where is the Holy Spirit - ON VACATION? Isn’t the Holy Spirit, guiding churches and theologians - today and yesterday?

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Hi, Marc. Yes, I do take the life, miracles, death and resurrection of Jesus as actual occurrences. Look at how His disciples/apostles responded–how they lived and how they died. Nobody does that for something they just made up amongst themselves. Jesus came to literally become the new head of the human race in place of the Old Adam. He is now our source and our head and we who are in Him, we are His body and His bride and made new in Him. This is both actual and metaphorical, I believe. I also believe that my understanding of these things is akin to a child’s understanding of particle physics–so the above is, while not accurate, the closest thing to accuracy that I am capable of understanding.

I signed up for chemistry in high school and I wish I had taken the class. The problem was, though, that it made me angry. I felt that, as a young child, I had been lied to because this new understanding was so much more complex than what I had learned in grade school. I concluded that I wouldn’t have any reason to believe what they were teaching me in High School since I now knew I had been “lied to” in grade school. Silly child. Yet I was right in a sense–the HS class would have been more real than the grade school class (not least because physicists actually had learned a lot more themselves in those intervening years) but it would still have been, compared to the knowledge of the pros, a comparative “lie” when held up to that far-more-complex truth (also very much simpler and less true than our present-day knowledge of these things.)

In the same way, my understanding of the atonement and eschatology and what it was Jesus accomplished in his passion, death and resurrection, are necessarily so simplistic that one day I know I’ll look back and be amused at my childish image of my own theological “sophistication.” That is my apology for, well, pretty much everything I think I know. :rofl:

I periodically agonized over the book of Job for many years until I read someone casually refer to it as ‘the parable of Job’. Incredible that I had never realized what it was. Of course! As a parable it makes PERFECT sense. The whole mythological flavor of it, the lesson (hidden by my understanding of it as an historical account) is primarily that bad things happen to good people and it doesn’t necessarily follow that these catastrophes are a consequence of their sins. Of course it is a very, very rich book and there’s much, much more to what it can teach us than that–but I’m pretty sure that’s the primary theme of the treatise. (But that’s really an aside.)

You asked how I feel about other religious texts. I haven’t read very many of them. I’ve read the Quran. It’s garbage, the collected sayings of a megalomaniacal mass-murdering warlord. It is heinous. I’ve read the Book of Mormon. It is meandering and reads like a b-list novel. Not useful. No “burning in the breast” as promised to testify of its truth. I’ve read a very little of the Bhagavad Gita. (Hopefully I spelled that right.) I found it compelling. Not that the mythology is true in and of itself, but I may read more one day. I do think it very likely contains truth in some of its stories. I think God can speak to a people and their stories can reflect that even though they were chronologically and geologically separated from the great happenings in Israel.

I would call myself partial preterist. I don’t think the prophecies in Revelation should be taken literally. I spent most of my life trying to do that and it simply doesn’t work for me. Much of the imagery was taken from the great apocryphal writings of the Old Testament, and those were symbolic. No actual fantastic beasts rose from the sea. Men who were mostly monsters rose from the sea of humanity to rule over it, conquering and eventually being conquered. Biblical scholars unabashedly conflate these monsters with the historical realms of old–Persia, Greece, Rome… to the point that unbelievers insist the writings came AFTER and not before those realms because otherwise, the history couldn’t have been known in any way but supernaturally. I don’t know enough about the claims and counter-claims to make any judgment on that. I would like to think they were genuinely before the fact, but one way or the other, it cannot effect my faith in God nor even my faith in the Bible as a divinely inspired collection of writings. People sometimes ask “what’s your favorite book?” and if you were to answer, “The Bible,” they will assume you are posing or virtue-signaling. So I just say, “John.” It confuses them because most of them have never heard (these days) of John. The Bible actually IS my favorite book, but when I say I don’t take it literally, people (not you) seem to assume that I don’t have a high opinion of it. I’ve studied it my entire life, literally since I was old enough to read the children’s bible storybooks on my own. That said, it is, imo, NOT the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. It contains some of the words of God, many words of men–and not only men writing as the mouthpieces of God. Sometimes the men are evil men being quoted by the writers. Sometimes the men are writing poetry out of their own anguish (“Let all their wives be widows and all their children orphans!”, “Happy is he who smashes their little ones against the rocks!”)

… days later… This has been sitting here for maybe a week, waiting for me to finish it. I can’t do it today either, so I’m just going to pull the trigger on it. Hopefully I can get back to it later.

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