2nd Thoughts On ChristianPUR (Purgatorial Universal Restoration)

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

would call myself partial preterist. I don’t think the prophecies in Revelation should be taken literally. I spent most of my life trying to do that and it simply doesn’t work for me. Much of the imagery was taken from the great apocryphal writings of the Old Testament, and those were symbolic. No actual fantastic beasts rose from the sea. Men who were mostly monsters rose from the sea of humanity to rule over it, conquering and eventually being conquered. Biblical scholars unabashedly conflate these monsters with the historical realms of old–Persia, Greece, Rome… to the point that unbelievers insist the writings came AFTER and not before those realms because otherwise, the history couldn’t have been known in any way but supernaturally.

Well,Cindy. If you simply accept the visions, of the folks seeing the Zombie Apocalypse during the tribulation…and watch more episodes, of AMC’s The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead…then you can buy into this… as the most probable, end-times model. And not worry about beasts with multiple heads, etc. It makes life so much simpler.

Perhaps John was seeing Zombies…and needed to use symbolic language, to describe them? Perhaps a bit of “scholarship” here?

• Revelation’s Two Witnesses give rise to Zombie Apocalypse

Are those two witnesses in Revelation zombies (Rev. 11:1-13)?

Astute Bible students know what I’m talking about. In the middle of a vision Jesus gave to John on the island of Patmos, God revealed that two witnesses will have the power and authority to “prophesy” for over a thousand days. Like John the Baptist, they wear sackcloth; like Moses they usher plagues and peril.

The beast, ever the enemy of God’s people in the vision, wars against the witnesses and kills them. From there, the vision unfolds like a western. The witnesses remain dead in the streets of Jerusalem for three and one-half days. No one honors them with a proper burial; and, after a time, God breathes new life into them. They raise from the dead at the amazement of onlookers.

That sounds like a zombie apocalypse to me, but unlike the lifeless drones that haunt Atlanta in the fictitious world Walking Dead, these two witnesses bear testimony to the power of God.

Zombies might even come knocking…and save you the trouble, of looking for them.

[Child_of_God]

That is true. Many folks here have theologies, that deviate from what I call the historical creeds…and theologies that deviate from a normal statistical, bell shaped curve - regarding theology and philosophy.

When it comes to the Zombie Apocalypse, my “official” position here is this. Different folks have visions of the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. So you can’t say their visions aren’t true and yours are…since they also claim to be Christian. And this is the most probable, end-times model. Akin to the AMC shows, The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead.

I find your view of a Zombie Apocalypse a possibility and I do not discount it.

Then the apostles must have produced Holy Scripture correctly. And perhaps Sacred Tradition also. But you imply that NO theologian, No church, and Nobody here - has gotten the understanding correct. Because everyone is a sinner, imperfect and Christ is NOT present with them. Well, where is the Holy Spirit - ON VACATION? Isn’t the Holy Spirit, guiding churches and theologians - today and yesterday?

I do not believe that any single person, theologian, or Church has a completely accurate interpretation of scripture. And I do believe that the Holy Spirit does guide man, even today. But, as humans, we are subject to error, and no human, theologian, or Church is perfect.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I find your view of a Zombie Apocalypse a possibility and I do not discount it.

Excellent. We do share something in common. Now we just need to get other folks - on board here.

I do not believe that any single person, theologian, or Church has a completely accurate interpretation of scripture. And I do believe that the Holy Spirit does guide man, even today. But, as humans, we are subject to error, and no human, theologian, or Church is perfect.

I think we can get “close enough, for all practical purposes”. Let’s illustrate this with a joke from Comprehending Engineers-Take Two

In the high school gym, all the girls in the class were lined up against one wall, and all the boys against the opposite wall.

Then, every ten seconds, they walked toward each other until they were half the previous distance apart.

A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer were asked, “When will the girls and boys meet?”

The mathematician said: “Never.”

The physicist said: “In an infinite amount of time.”

The engineer said: “Well… in about two minutes, they’ll be close enough for all practical purposes.”

But let me share a Calvinist perspective…from the site Got Questions:

• Why is it so hard to understand the Bible?

Finally…while I primarily lean to Eastern Orthodoxy - for theological guidance…I do like the Roman Catholic, Franciscan contemplative messages - of Father Richard Rohr. There’s an article and exchange, in today’s Patheos Catholic Newsletter. I also subscribe to their evangelical newsletter.

• A Conversation with Richard Rohr, OFM

I look at 2 things and bring them back into an Anglican framework:

• I look to Francisian contemplation, as found in Richard Rorh’s Contemplation. Which I like to primary focus, in the Christian silent adaptations of Mindfulness, Fox Golden Key, Yoga; Zen,

• I follow the Eastern Orthodoxy model of theology…which hasn’t changed much, since the time of Christ. And I follow their distinction, of God’s essence and energies. And I believe anyone - Christian or non-Christian - can tap into God’s energies for healing. The Native American medicine men and women…and the Chinese…have been doing it for centuries. And I hang around groups that don’t charge - for energy healing. See What Everyone Should Know About Energy Healing and Christian Reiki - for example. But I ONLY endorse those… that don’t charge…, do it as a service… and the group is God centric. And it’s only a compliment, to traditional medical service. And Christians can tap into the energies for Theosis. For a deeper discussion, from a Native American perspective. See medicine man Russel Four Eagles on YouTube at The Making of a Healer - Teachings of My Oneida Grandmother and Native American Healing Tradition

[marcthedawn]

Mesmerizing, childlike interpolations in your writings possess an ode of submission to the healing of God’s energies by both natural and supernatural means, dearest Zombie! Keep them coming like the modestly sweet vanilla ice cream which flows out of an ice cream machine into a sugar (or simple waffle cup) cone to encourage the innocent, helpless yielding and trust of men and women towards the ineffable Divine! Thank you, again @Holy-Fool-P-Zombie

[marcthedawn]

Still patiently waiting with baited breath for Elder @JasonPratt’s stamp of approval, or dialogic commentary, at least? <3 lol

[Hermano]

You say things I agree with, but let me point out some disagreements.

Many spirits/souls (while not inherently immortal) are currently existing in another dimension (either in Paradise “above” the Earth or Hades “below-within” it).

Spirits/souls are not immortal? So are you an annihilationist, or not? I believe everyone will eventually come to repentance and salvation, including demons: everyone is predestined for life. The remedial lake of fire has the devil and his angels in mind (Mt. 25:41); and we recall that it was a snake on a pole (Num. 21:9, John 3:14) that foreshadowed the wideness of the scope of Christ’s work on the cross—his redemptive work covering even the very first sinner.

We have to account for the spirits/shades of the Rephaim , some of the Nephilim , Gibborim , Anakim , etc. (variants of angel-human hybrids basically) that died in Noah’s Deluge (not including the preadamic Deluge) and also appeared afterwards that are in Sheol/Hades now which is above Tartarus where the Watchers are.

Pre-Adamic deluge? I don’t believe in Darwinian macroevolution over innumerable eons, with eventual hominids leading up to the sentient being, “Adam”–by the mechanisms of death and “survival of the fittest.” Death came in through the man Adam (Rom. 5:12, 1 Cor. 15:21), not before him. And note: Satan has the power of death, not God (Hebrews 2:14). Death is an enemy, not an instrument, of God, which will be destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26)–death is put to death, disappearing in the lake of fire, “the second death” (Rev. 20:14). All mortality will be swallowed up by life (2 Cor. 5:4).

So I don’t believe there were any pre-Adamic races. I believe Adam was the first human, his body supernaturally created out of dirt, and from his side, his wife Eve became “the mother of all living” (Gen. 3:20), during Creation week–when everything that has (thus far) been created (including plant-life, animal life, angels, and humans) came into existence–and it was all good (Gen. 1:31).

I agree that many do err on understanding the “Lake of the (divine-theon ) Fire”/Gehenna/Hades/Sheol/the Refiner’s Crucible," however, I don’t want to embrace the corrective/remedial/restorative aspect of it at the expense of ignoring the punitive/vengeful/retributive aspect of it.

While I too believe in postmortem judgment and correction, I make a sharp distinction between Hades/Gehenna/hell (to be avoided at all costs, e.g. Mt. 5:30) and the subsequent remedial lake of fire, into which hell and death will one day be cast (Rev. 20:14).

God uses evil for His purposes and He doesn’t shy away from that. Lucifer/Satan is just his rebellious servant, his overly self-confident prosecuting attorney

I don’t believe God sends evil, or that Satan was, is, or ever will be, his servant. Please consider this essay (for me, the most important I have ever read),

SATAN: Old Testament Servant Angel or New Testament Cosmic Rebel?

Some suffering in Hades, the current, post-mortem jail where (a bagillion souls are as we speak) as revealed in Luke 16, is allowed and perpetrated by the demons proportioned (and in some cases, multiplied) according to one’s works on Earth and demonic attachment per Matthew 18:34. Some of them there will suffer the the LoF’s punitive but purgative capital punishment with brimstone (and you can guess why its there). These same folks will be purified/touchstoned/restored through, and ultimately from this 2nd Death process/baptism. It’s an authoritative , culminative crescendo of a divine ass whooping for a gazillion years of rebellion, and refinement of sin’s penalty, power, and presence

1. I am not at all convinced by Matthew 18:34 that demons are the jailers of hell, perpetrating torture on humans—although I do think that people who die in their sins continue as POWs of Satan and sin in death, just as they were in life.

2. Again, I think you are wrongly conflating the Luke 16 hell/Hades/Gehenna with the later, healing, restorative Revelation 20 lake of fire. (But as you said, you “essentially believe in a compromising synthesis of the purple and yellow” in the “Christian Views of Final Punishment” chart you linked to.)

Blessings.