The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo

Full Preterism/Pantelism Refuted:

“The folly of full Preterism”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … -preterism

Full Preterism “misdefining resurrection”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … surrection

“Mishandling the sleep -awake metaphor”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … e-metaphor

“Misdefining the rapture”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … he-rapture

“Full Preterism robs Christ”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … obs-christ

“The Lesser Christ of Full Preterism”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … -preterism

[size=150]oh dear!![/size]

This was posted in another thread & my response unanswered:

We are all saved? Saved from what?

Sin, disease, death, pain, guilt, sorrows, torments, unbelief, mental illness, hatred of God, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, serial killing, corruption, war, stubbornness?

Scripture makes it clear that salvation is conditional on faith (Rom. 10:9-10,13; Acts 2:38; 11:14; 16:31; Mk.16:16; Jn.3:18; etc).

Isa.45:22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 "They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’ Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame

From a Godless eternity.

How does this fit in with your view of Revelation:

What Scripture gives you the idea that the torments of the “High priest and Co.” have ended & they are “duly reconciled” to God:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev.20:10, KJV)

Rev.20:10 reveals the devil (whom you equate with the “High priest and Co.”) is cast into the lake of fire. Wouldn’t that kill a mortal man like the High Priest? Then, after his death, he is tormented in the lake of fire, which would be after death punishment. This continues EIS the “ages of the ages”, or, since you don’t seem to like literal translations & interpretations, i take it your preference is KJV “for ever and ever”. IOW ECT.

BTW, the contextual references to Satan & the devil don’t seem to be speaking of a human “High Priest”:

Rev.20:2 He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
Rev. 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,

Unless you think, like some Pantelists, apparently, that the millennium (1000 years) lasted only about 40 years (c. 30-70 A.D.), which comes about 960 years short of a full enchilada.

The pantelist position is that the ‘lake of fire’ is the same as Jesus’ “gehenna” — something even Paidion agrees with. The pantelist view goes one step further understanding Jesus’ “gehenna” to be in fact a reference to the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem. So… whatever the identity of the devil/beast/false prophet, IF they be human figures as I intimate in that quote above then their demise in Jerusalem’s fall, i.e., their death, then beyond that they shall be reconciled, for… “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.” I’m inclined to believe Paul’s words here, but that’s me.

IF the devil be a literal spirit being then destruction would be in order, i.e., cessation of existence. The new covenant world about to come in its fullness was NOT in any way shape or form to be under any spirit subjection… at least NOT according to the writer of Hebrews…

<μέλλω> mellō = about to

It is indeed the pantelist position that John’s 1000yrs reflects the coverage of that 40yr period and is duly understood as “figurative language” as reflected in Paidion’s words here, to which again I agree…

"]Davo, the book of Revelation consists of a vision that someone named “John” experienced. It is full of figurative language and there are hundreds of different interpretations.
Along these very lines both futurist position of Amillennialism and Postmillennialism likewise agree with the “figurative language” interpretation.

We are missing a few questions. In what way is something considered Orthodox - in Christianity?

Rather than looking at the views Origen or Davo expresses, which are taking opposite sides. I see what WIKI has to say:

I mean, folks can look at me and say I’m NOT orthodox. Even though I follow the Nicene Creed, the ACNA beliefs, and Eastern Anglo-Catholic orientations.

Why?

Well, I practice Buddhist Mindfulness and Yoga. Or taking part in healing ceremonies, of Native Americans, Japanese Johrei / Sukyo Mahikari and German Burno Groening.
Or I am a member, of the Theosophical Society. Where I can abide, by their 3 general objects.
Or I talk about the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse :wink: - rather than something like Left Behind series viewpoint.

And If I’m right, on the last point…I am performing a great service - for humanity. :smiley:

I’ve NEVER hidden the fact that pantelism is not ‘orthodox’.

We do have parallels, in the Theosophical Society. Where historical folks like Annie Besant, promotes what I call Esoteric Christianity. Or folks like Mary Baker Eddy, promote an Idealistic brand (i.e. all is mental - no matter. And the Theosophical equivalent, of Mary Baker Eddy - is Joel Goldsmith) . Assuming you (or folks like Mary Baker Eddy or Annie Besant) - are right. I wonder what God must be thinking?

I gave them Holy Scripture, but only a FEW got it?

Or is God thinking?

I tried to make my message, as clear as possible - for ALL of humanity to understand. But look at the fights, between the different church branches and theologians. HOW can my brilliant theologians, like Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther - have totally different perspectives?

Either way, it must be giving God some headaches. :laughing:

So you like Paul’s words (according to your own interpretation of them), but reject John’s in Revelation:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (lit. ages of the ages, Rev.20:10, KJV)

BTW those who are being tormented aren’t destroyed as in annihilated or killed. Which, again, leaves you rejecting the Scripture quoted above. And if those torments began in 70 AD and continue “forever and ever” (or “into the ages of the ages”), can God have become “all in all” in 70 AD & could all prophecy have been fulfilled as per your Pantelistic theology?

DaveB asks a question below in another thread which is more pertinent to be dealt with here in this pantelist thread. But first just by way of clarification… like other eschatological views prêterism has its variants — Pantelism being one of them. The main difference between these two fulfilled views is… pantelism views Israel’s prophesied redemption in Christ to be the catalyst for humanity’s reconciliation to God and thus all the blessings to flow because of that.

Again, pantelism takes an inclusive prêteristic position. I use ‘inclusive’ as opposed to ‘universal’ BECAUSE there are many aspects of universalism far removed from the pantelist rationale. Universalism is in fact much closer to its nemesis of Infernalism, or if one prefers… Particularism, as in both these positions believe in the EXACT same postmortem experience and nature of “hell” for any ascribed as destined there — the ONLY real difference being the degree of the suffering endured therein, i.e., limited or unlimited.

As a pantelist the 1st resurrection was germane to the firstfruit saints of the AD30-70 NT era, culminating in the 2nd or general resurrection of AD70, being inclusive of all Israel prior to that; and then in consequence the rest of departed humanity. The only “physical resurrection” per sé that counted was Jesus’ which assured the redemption and reconciliation of all — the restoration of man.

Pantelism doesn’t so much go for this so-called physical/spiritual divide when it comes to ‘resurrection’ (which biblically speaking was actually something promised to Israel), understanding such to be speaking of COVENANT realities and thus specifically and primarily referring to Israel’s ‘covenant renewal’.

Pantelism sees this 1st resurrection ALREADY in operation here…

This death to life that NOW IS was the beginnings of Israel’s covenant renewal, i.e., resurrection, starting in Jesus’ ministry then and there — the first resurrection.

Then what followed in the AD70 Parousia was the general or 2nd resurrection, as per…

The “resurrection of the dead” was two-fold and did not necessitate physical death. Firstly… the resurrection of Jn 5:25 was of the firstfruits harvest occurring in that generation — thus their “coming to life” was a coming up out from among the dead, that is… what constituted the body of old covenant Israel (Moses), of which Jesus “would be the first to rise from the dead” as per Acts 26:23. Pantelism understands resurrection here described as covenantal in focus and nature as Jesus was not in fact the first to rise from the dead — if by resurrection is meant the attaining of a new or revived fleshly-physical abode or mode of existence, for Scripture is replete with this phenomenon already… 1Kgs 17:17-23; 2Kgs 4:17-37; 2Kgs 13:21; Mt 27:52-53; Lk 7:11-17; Lk 8:40-42, 49-55; Jn 11:38-44, so for Paul, this cannot have been the essence of what “resurrection” was, in view here.

Thus the resurrection of John 5 was not a “spiritual” resurrection followed then by a “bodily” resurrection, no. Rather, it was the “firstfruits” resurrection (1st) being followed by a “whole harvest” resurrection (2nd). Resurrection was all about COVENANT change — or as Paul said… “we shall all be changed” — the AD70 DoJ was the final death knell of that old covenant world.

The “lifeJn 5:29 is the affirmative comparison to its negative opposite “condemnation” aka judgment. Those of “faith” would be spared the dire consequence of AD70 — calling on the name of the Lord they would be saved (Rom 10:13) and not be put to shame (Rom 10:11) such as condemnation would bring, hence…

Continuing to walk according to the passing old covenant would lead to “death” — quite literally as it turned out for some in the DoJ; yet also metaphorically speaking comparatively… walking according to the burgeoning new covenant was the pathway of “life” into the coming new agewherein righteousness dwells2Pet 3:13.

davo said: “Continuing to walk according to the passing old covenant would lead to “death” — quite literally as it turned out for some in the DoJ; yet also metaphorically speaking comparatively… walking according to the burgeoning new covenant was the pathway of “life” into the coming new age “wherein righteousness dwells” 2Pet 3:13.”

Thanks for that extended post above, davo. It helped me to sharpen up a couple of thoughts and questions.

  1. Do you (and by ‘you’ I am not pointing at you in particular; I’m referring to FP’s and Pantelists in general) have any grounds on which to base a hope for life after death?
  2. Why is belief in physical resurrection ‘archaic’??
  3. Does righteousness dwell now in this age, if in fact we are in the ‘coming new age?’
  4. Is the Church now the ‘body of Christ’?
  5. What does it mean, if anything, to ‘be a Christian’?

Thanks. What bothers me and maybe some others is a conceptual thing: what is the ‘bridge’ from AD70 into the new age?

  1. Do you (and by ‘you’ I am not pointing at you in particular; I’m referring to FP’s and Pantelists in general) have any grounds on which to base a hope for life after death?
  2. Why is belief in physical resurrection ‘archaic’??
  3. Does righteousness dwell now in this age, if in fact we are in the ‘coming new age?’
  4. Is the Church now the ‘body of Christ’?
  5. What does it mean, if anything, to ‘be a Christian’?

I’m not a FP but I did play a Doctor on TV once, so let me take a stab.

  1. FP believe people are judged by Christ at death. That’s how they interpret the day of judgment
  2. FP believe physical death is natural and not caused by “the fall” or “sin” . They dismiss the physical body and embrace a spiritual or angelic existence.
  3. I’m not sure but i think they believe evil just continues indefinitely so i’m not sure how they view righteousness in this age
  4. I think most FP believe there is no need for churches,Pastors,the Lord’s supper or “body of Christ” on earth after 70AD.
  5. Not sure

Thanks Steve. I hope davo and Chad will share as well.

Well, that was more worthy of what our friend Origen might churn out… in fact nearly verbatim. :unamused:

That was your most accurate answer… :open_mouth:

I shall get to answering Dave’s queries properly from a pantelist perspective presently. :sunglasses:

Please prepare present precepts perspicaciously.

That was your most accurate answer… You mean that I played a Doctor on TV :slight_smile: Glad you liked it!

I shall get to answering Dave’s queries properly from a pantelist perspective presently.

You are sure i’m wrong but you have to research the answers? Sweet! :laughing:

The fact is that there is no centralized FP playbook and you don’t all think exactly alike on every point. I gave the general perspective but you may have a Davo perspective.

Some ‘perspicaciousresearch by you quasi-pret experts would do wonders as opposed to what is being trotted out as to “what prêterists believe”. :astonished: — I am of course taking the pantelism angle in this particular thread addressed to me.

That is such an odd question and I wonder what you are thinking that raises that for you. Prêterists typically call me a “universalist” because I declare none shall be missing out. I’m sure I have the same belief, hope and expectation you do of life after death. Again I’m befuddled you even ask given the countless conversations we’ve had on this board; to use your phrase — what gives?

Did I use that term?

That’s the essence of 2Pet 3:13… God’s righteousness in Christ has superseded the limitations of law righteousness.

From the pantelist perspective “the body of Christ” was the firstfruit saints (Heb 12:23) — believers post parousia are technically the offspring of the great marriage of the Son to his Bride. Thus the consummation (the parousia) of the wedding was NOT the end, but the most glorious of beginnings.

Many things… one would be a servant of God.

AD30 AND AD70 was the bridge — these events were the bookends of God’s one-time restorative event in history in time for all history and time immemorial.

Ok, time for me to do my due diligence - I’m going through your past comments (from 2012) until I get a better handle on things. I want to understand this. :smiley: