The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo


Rowan Williams’ point that… “(1) all theology is contextual (including the theology we find in the Bible)” is key IMO. So much or too much gets interpreted as across-the-board carte blanch indictments with no remedial recourse. IOW, many a proclamation was situational NOT eternal (in the sense we know how to use that term).

DaveB is right IMO about Enns’ approach that… “does not dishonor the scripture” — unlike the sloppy and soppy “daddy-God” theology of some universalists who impose such sentimentalist goo upon certain unpalatable texts; just downright rejecting, changing or just plain excising what they can’t conceive FROM the text… a method that is wholly arbitrary, inconsistent and does greater dishonor to the scripture, IMO.



An Internet search of: "why did God tell Israel to destroy Canaanites?"reveals many answers from Christian, Jewish & other websites, including our usual “go-to” site: … ation.html

Which references this book:

“The four views presented in Show Them No Mercy are quite different, yet all lie squarely within the evangelical tradition. This book gives each view a forum for presentation, critique, and defense. It allows you to compare different perspectives on holy war, divine judgement, and the use of deadly force to arrive at your own conclusions on what the Bible teaches.” … escription

Another example from the internet search says:

“The inhabitants of Canaan were neither ignorant nor innocent victims of an angry God. They had been committing terrible sin knowing full well of the true and living God. Because they rejected Him and His forgiveness God harshly judged them.” … t_1382.cfm



In order to be creative in theology, science and philosophy…Guess what? You need to embrace boring activities. Here’s an article I’ve shared - on Twitter today:

Need Creative Inspiration? Do Something Boring

Try doing this today. Then come back to this forum and present some creative theological ideas. The only problem I have - is this. What I might consider to be exciting (like watching the AMC show tonight, entitled The Walking Dead)…others might consider to be boring. And vice versa. :wink:

In fact, this weekend alone:

I went to see the movie Thor: Ragnarok
I spent 3 hours, installing a upgraded Windows 10 version
I updated the firmware, on my VOiP phones
I updated the operating system, on my cell phone.
I updated my router firmware
I will be watching The Walking Dead
I will watch TV evangelist Joel Osteen

The excitement is sometimes overwhelming. :laughing:

Origen didn’t come across the Calvinist, Got Questions site - to his question:

Why did God command the extermination / genocide of the Canaanites, women and children included?

Wait a minute. On second thought - he did. He just didn’t list the full title :laughing:

Now let me get back - to my exciting project. I’m working on a book entitled Zombie Theology. :laughing:



Well, first of all Randy, lets get you to consider some of these passages…

You said :


So let’s look as some scripture…

  1. “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” (Matt. 3:2)

  2. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Matt. 3:7)

  3. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees.” (Matt. 3:10)

  4. “His winnowing fork is in His hand.” (Matt. 3:12)

  5. “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt. 4:17)

  6. “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt. 10:7)

  7. “You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes.” (Matt. 10:23)

  8. “…the age about to come.” (Matt. 12:32)

  9. “The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds.” (Matt. 16:27)

  10. “There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

  11. “‘When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?’ ‘…He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.’ ‘…Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.’ …When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.” (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

  12. “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Matt. 24:34)

  13. “From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

  14. “The kingdom of God is at hand.” (Mk. 1:15)

  15. “What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. …They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them.” (Mk. 12:9,12)

  16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)

  17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)

  18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)

  19. “His winnowing fork is in His hand….” (Lk. 3:17)

  20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)

  21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11)

  22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

  23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

  24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)

  25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

  26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21)

  27. “I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.’ …‘Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?’” (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

  28. “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” (Jn. 21:22)

  29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall be in the last days…’” (Acts 2:16-17)

  30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

  31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

  32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25)

  33. “Not for [Abraham’s] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)

  34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

  35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

  36. “It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand.” (Rom. 13:11-12)

  37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

  38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)

  39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)

  40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

  41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52)

  42. “Maranatha!” [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

  43. "…not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

  44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)

  45. “The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven.” (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

  46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)

  47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

  48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23)

  49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7)

  50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)

  51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

  52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)

  53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

  54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

  55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

  56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)

  57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)

  58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)

  59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it’s end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)

  60. “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

  61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

  62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)

  63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

  64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)

  65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

  66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

  67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

  68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14)

  69. “Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty.” (Jms. 2:12)

  70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)

  71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7)

  72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

  73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:6)

  74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

  75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)

  76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

  77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)

  78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)

  79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)

  80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)

  81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)

  82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)

  83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8)

  84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)

  85. “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

  86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

  87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

  88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…’” (Jude 1:4,14-15)

  89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, ‘In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.’ These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)

  90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

  91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

  92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25)

  93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)

  94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)

  95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5)

  96. “And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

  97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)

  98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)

  99. “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.” (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

  100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)

  101. “Yes, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:20)

So Randy, what say you? :smiley:



Oh, come now - Chad. You are quoting passages out of context. And you want me to present paragraphs - putting EACH into context? Holy Jumping catfish. Great balls of fire. And all those corny Cliches , from the Adam West Batman TV series. :laughing:

Well, different theologians - historical and contemporary…And different churches - historical and contemporary…have different contexts, for each of these passages.

For example. Look at this article, from the Patheos evangelical newsletter:

Jesus Recommends Gun Ownership?

Wherein this passage - where Jesus speaks:

Could be used, to endorse US gun ownership. :laughing:

Unless we read the article…and see the context, in which this verse was used.

If you, Davo, and others here - and elsewhere…whether people, zombies or space aliens…or groups I haven’t mentioned - like vampires and werewolves…wish to side with full preterism…So be it! I respect that.

Usually, I walk into an Eastern Orthodox bar…point the bartender, to the theologians…and say,


Or I walk into a Buddhist bar…point to some Buddhists meditating and playing cards…and say,

But I also reserve the right…to apply some Holy Fool humor - to various theological and political “representations”. Usually, the Holy Fools bar…has a stand up comedian day. :laughing:

And don’t get me started, on the zombie bars…They are “kind of dead” - in my opinion. :laughing:

Just a footnote here. I get all GIF images, from a Google keyword search. And I insure the images, are geared to a GP audience. Same as I do, when I post things - on social media. If any of my images, are consider R-rated… Please point out the image to me. I don’t think zombies having lunch, are suitable images - for a GP audience. But folks dressed as zombies - via Hollywood make-up artistry - are considered suitable. Sometimes, it’s hard to balance - between images and text. And so folks won’t get locked into GIF images, I’ll “stir it up” (see song Meaning sometimes I’ll use a GIF…sometimes a cartoon…and sometimes a still image. All honoring the high standards…of the Russian Orthodox, Holy Fools tradition. :smiley:



Randy said:

Great :laughing:



If the only punishment warned of in the NT was the destruction of Jerusalem, how do you explain Paul saying that gentiles (“Greek”) would be judged too?

Romans 2
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

Don’t the next lines clearly seem to speak of possible punishment for each individual, beyond what occurred in AD 70?

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.



I would say that the use of the term ‘Law’ is a hint :slight_smile:



There were Christians both of Jewish and Gentile backgrounds in the church at Rome. Paul doesn’t particularly address Jews alone in his letter. Rather he is writing to ALL true Christians whether Jew or Gentile:

He is also clear in the passage that qaz quoted from Romans 2, that those warnings are to “the Jew first and also the Greek.” Indeed he emphasized this by using the phrase twice. It certainly seems clear that Paul’s warnings were universal, and apply to all people in the Roman Church. In my opinion, they also apply to all people from Paul’s day to our day.



Respectfully I ask ‘So what’ :astonished: You continually want to put your narrative into a historical document. Where the he… heck do you get off saying that Paul was addressing the universal church in 2017?



Questions for you, Chad (or others can chime in):

When Paul was writing his epistles - to the churches. Did he ask them, to put up a sign: “Only Jews are allowed in this church?”
Paul was a Roman citizen - was he not? Did he envision that ONLY Jews were Roman citizens? Did he EXCLUDE Roman citizens from the churches, he wrote to or for?
Was Paul writing ONLY for his time or did he envision others - after his death - might read his writings? Why or why not?

Let’s view a Q and A, from the Calvinist site - Got Questions:

Did the writers of the New Testament regard their writings as Scripture?


Do you agree that they regarded their writings as scripture?
And if so, were they only for current generations or also future generations?



First I have to say sorry to Don as I got a bit upset. :blush:
Randy asked:

Those are good questions.

If I take Paul’s writings as being perpetually thought of as the word of God (scripture) through all eternity, it is akin to someone recommending a hoarse and wagon or a pulled rickshaw as the ideal mode of transportation, even though we now live in an age of powerful automobiles and Jet airplanes. A view of the bible as scripture to be followed to the letter has a hard time evolving and growing with culture changes and human evolution. But most fundamentalists will counter with the idea that it is that very thing that makes Christians a ‘peculiar people’ :laughing:

I’ve witnessed it time and time again, Christians trying to literalize what is in the bible, and many tend to want to get back to the way it ought to be (what ever that is) much like many Americans lament the glory days of the 1950’s (Andy Griffith and Leave It to Beaver :laughing:)

That literalness or ‘static state’ is why I view the whole of the bible as an historic account. The literalness and message works if we keep it confined to the timeframe it was written. When we try to bend it out of that frame, we start changing meaning or picking and choosing what parts we will agree with and follow.

And I think it is why the modern 21st century church is dying.

So to answer your question, I think Paul was given revelation and his instructions were to a church that was going to be severely tested in short order.

Side note as to what I was saying earlier in the post, do we realize there are still churches who do not let women speak in the congregation because of that one passage written by Paul? :open_mouth:




I think most Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, would say scripture was written for all generations. But the theologies will change, depending on the Protestant church or theologian. Or what the Roman Catholic Magisterium says - at the moment. The only branch that has tried, to keep the historical context intact - is Eastern Orthodoxy. Hence, not much has changed with them theologically - over the centuries. At least not major, that is.

I think there is a purpose, to keeping ancient stuff alive. Whether it is the sacraments, of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. Or the ancient rites and ceremonies - of the Lakota and other tribes. There is an old saying:


Let’s end with a revival song. :smiley:



No need to be sorry for what you said. But I do want to answer the question. I’m not sure why my words caused you to be angry.

First, I did not say that Paul was addressing the universal church in 2017.

Do you disagree with this? Was he not writing to the church at Rome? Was he not addressing both Jews and Gentiles who were part of that church.

Then I concluded with:

First, I prefixed the statement with the phrase “in my opinion.” Secondly I stated that my opinion was that Paul’s words APPLY to all people from his day to ours. In what way am I “getting off” or trying to “get away with” something by stating this opinion.



Don, I appreciate you. I lashed out and should not have. I don’t very often agree with you but I can also see your motives and position are sincere. Thanks.

I think if you look at the post I posted to Randy’s question, you’ll get a feel of where I am at, as if you don’t already know.

Now you did say:

So then you said:

Maybe you can elaborate :question:



I am aware of such churches.

In both the fellowships we attend, sisters can express their thoughts about, or understanding of, the Scripture during the meetings. However, in neither fellowship are their female elders or pastors or even deacons (whereas the New Testament writers particularly name some of the female deacons of that day).



Randy, I believe this is true.

However, I disagree with this. From what I understand, the words that Jesus spoke came from the beginning.
There was no Trinity. It was God and man, and God put His Spirit in man’s mind and heart. This was the Word. God and man were one in Spirit, and man was given dominion over the earth.
There was no Bible. Man operated by faith in the Spirit of God inside his heart and mind to determine the difference between right and wrong(the moral law, the Golden Rule)
Men and women were equal, having been given the same Spirit.
There was no other “religion”.



Hi, LLC. Theology ends up, being a matter of belief. You can have either:

Theologies that follow close to the norm, of a bell shaped curb
Or those theologies that deviate substantially, from the bell shaped curve (like you might find, with some here)

If God allows others - who don’t know Christ now - to enter the kingdom (as I regard as an inclusiist, whether they actively know Christ or not now)… God will also make room, for different Christian theologies - that deviate from the statistical norm - to enter the kingdom.

When all is finally over, God will direct us - to the right theology. But in God’s infinite compassion, he will make room for those deviating - from whatever the “right” theology is.

In the meantime, you can check any links - in my signature. Or put the keyword phase into Google. They more or less, tell where I stand theologically - on different issues.

There is a good article, by the author who wrote the article on Inclusivist :

Is Right Relationship with God More Important Than Right Theology?

I leave it for everyone, to read and ponder. :smiley:

If we don’t have “orthodox” theology, then how does our relationship and conception of Christ:

Differ from the Muslim, who looks at Jesus as a prophet?
Differ from the Bahá’í, who looks at Jesus - as one of the “manifestations of God”?
Differ from the Jews, who view him - as a good Rabbi?
Differ from the Hindus, who look on him - as one of many avatars?
Or the Mormon Joseph Smith’s - idea of Christ?

Let’s view a user comment - and author answer - from the article:

And that’s to sing a song - about this. :laughing:



Randy, I hear this parroted by many people. As far as God’s character and nature is concerned, if it is a continuous revelation wherein man did not have the knowledge of God in the past, and now we do, then there is something new under the sun. However, as you said, there is nothing new under the sun. Jesus did not teach us anything new. These things were already known by those who came before, clear back to Adam. In fact, as it says in Exodus, Moses gave the Israelites the bread of life. All the prophets in the Bible were saying the same things that what Jesus was saying.

From what I understand, there is no theology to follow. We are simply to love God, follow the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule.



Well, if it wasn’t “new” it was certainly different from Moses depiction of God. Moses portrayed God as a killer of people, and one who commanded the Israelites to wipe out a whole nations including women, children, and babies. Jesus taught that God is kind to both ungrateful people and to evil people. (Luke 6:35)