The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo

#221

How well do you “follow” or keep “the Ten Commandments”? Do you have any degree of non-following where to break one is to be guilty of all?

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#222

Simply because there is no logical connection between Jesus and Moses as persons. Moses wrote according to his limited knowledge of God, ascribing to God’s character that which is false. Jesus is the Son of God begotten as the first of God’s acts. He is the EXACT image of the Father’s essence (Hebrews 1:3). As the Son of God, He knows His Father as no one else ever knew Him. Your “logic” if consistent, would affirm that because Jesus spoke according to the working of the Father within Him, then it would logically follow Justin Martyr spoke according to the working of the Father within him, and so did Clement of Rome, the writer to Diognetus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Irenæus, etc., etc., etc.

There’s nothing consistent about that whatever, unless, of course you are a hold the believe that the Bible is flawless, and believe everything found in a book whose contents have MANY sources, is totally consistent. That sounds like the belief of Fundamentalists.

I didn’t plead ANY excuses for Jesus’ error, since He didn’t err in any way. All you have shown is that a writer recorded him as having made an error.

Why within and not beyond? Is there something magical about the Biblical text? Something sacred that renders it totally true? Something that renders it fundamentally correct in every respect?

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#223

This I think is where the idea of salvation is so often contingent upon ones definition :open_mouth:

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#224

Well the logical connection of Scripture would disagree with your assessment, saying… like Yahweh’s prophet Moses, a greater than Moses was to be found in Jesus…

Luke likewise agrees with this testimony concerning the unity and connection of Jesus and Moses saying…

…shall be utterly destroyed… — ”Does Luke now qualify as does Mark to be on your list of NT suspect writers?

Again, your assessment would seem false or at least itself, limited. LIKE Jesus, Moses spoke that which he heard from the Father…

In terms of ‘the Prophet of GodMoses and Jesus are in the same boat, which really puts the sword through your odd critique of Moses’ trustworthiness…

These texts above completely rebut and make a nonsense of your dodgy dogma that… “there is no logical connection between Jesus and Moses”.

Again odd!! There is nothing in my logic to suggest that at all. Jesus was the prophet to come and emulates Moses in speaking Yahweh’s words to Israel… Moses gave warnings — Jesus gave warnings; that you like neither doesn’t nullify either. Jesus was ‘the Prophet’, not John the Baptist (Jn 1:21), not Justin Martyr, nor anyone else.

I’m pretty sure any following along having read any of my thoughts know full well by now I’m no Fundamentalist. SO… on what basis do you then make these arbitrary judgments of yours against the words of so many OT prophets but are afraid to apply the same consistency to the words of Jesus?

I suspect keeping in line with your practice of excising swathes of OT texts for their apparent errant recordings (based on nothing else than your mere say-so) you’ll need to be doing likewise with those NT text you also deem as written in error as well… IF you’re consistent that is. HOW and on what basis do you have any confidence in biblical writers who in your opinion falsely record Yahweh or Jesus? What is your MO?

No, none of those magical things… but rather, the veracity of the HISTORIC context of those biblical times where Israel was redeemed and the world reconciled.

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#225

Does the Old Testament teach everything that the Lord Jesus reveals as truth in the New Testament, such as, for 2 examples that occur ATM, these things that He revealed to His disciples:

Mt.24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Col.1:26 the secret that hath been hid from the ages and from the generations, but now was manifested to his saints,

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#226

God is indeed kind to the evil, i.e. all men. Yet His kindness has limits before it turns to severity:

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Romans 11)

4Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance? 5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.…(Romans 2)

As the Lord Jesus is the Image, Revealer & Word of God, Who do you suppose was that Lord Who is so often revealed, acting & speaking in the OT?

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (Gen.19:24)

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt.10:28)

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24)

34In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tormented, until he should repay all that he owed. 35That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart. (Matthew 18)

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#227

Yes, Origen. ALL of the NT passages you quoted are true. There will be terrible judgments for wicked people. But we must keep in mind that ALL of God’s judgments are remedial. He does nothing out of retaliation or vengeance (Yes we read, “Vengeance is mine” but that can be translated “Judgment is mine.”) GOD IS LOVE as the apostle John wrote in 1st John. Every act of God is love. God will provide no more pain to unrepentant evil people than is absolutely necessary for their correction. It would be unloving if He did not correct them.

"God is light and in Him is NO DARKNESS AT ALL (1John 1:5). If commanding the Israelites of old to totally destroy the people of a nation (including women, children, and babies) is not darkness, I don’t know what is. If commanding that disrespectful sons be stoned to death is not darkness, I don’t know what is. If commanding that women’s hands be cut off, and to show them no mercy, is not darkness, I don’t know what is.

Is it any wonder that I consider some of Moses’ depictions of God as mistaken?

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#228

I have addressed this before (see Nov 4 post below). It was earlier in this thread & not answered.

In addition to that, I don’t see anything the Lord Jesus commanded Moses & other men of God in the Old Testament to be mistaken. God doesn’t make mistakes.

The following article has many fine points on this subject:

christianthinktank.com/killheir.html

From page 4 of this thread…Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:57 am…

The OT civil law was a bit different from the USA today where half the people are in prison & the rest running around packing semi-automatic weapons. How many prisons do we read about in the OT? I imagine the crime rate was extremely low. Compare the harsh laws & low incidence of crime in modern day Singapore, for example, where one can walk about anywhere at any time of the day or night without fear. Would you recommend trying that in “America”, or even Canada?

As to destroying the Canaanites pagan children why would God command that? When the white man came to “America” he brought diseases that wiped out many of the natives. That might be one reason. (BTW, air travel today could lead to the extinction of the human race). Demon possession another reason. Moreover, what’s the harm done if killing these “children and babies” sends them to heaven?

Romans 13:1-7 states, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2 “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.…

Matthew 22:17Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 18But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 19Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 20And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. 22When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

Also from another date on page 4 of this topic…

We seem to be in general agreement except for this point where we appear to be defining “darkness” in different ways. As i see it spiritual darkness includes ignorance of the truth. God has no such darkness in Him at all. Therefore corrective judging of the world with curses or death for the good of humanity is consistent with God having no darkness in Him. gotquestions.org/spiritual-blindness.html

You say that God blinding the man in Acts was temporary & corrective. Yet the fact remains if blinding people (e.g. Saul) is a curse, God curses people. What difference does it make if it is blindness, sickness, some disease, death or other curses? All of them will be temporary, corrective & for good. Is it your position that things such as blindness, sickness, disease, insanity, etc, are not curses?

Re God killing, all already have a death sentence in themselves, so what is the issue if God speeds it up a bit? Is not every moment of life His gift & His right to cease giving it as He wills according to His good pleasure, glory & for the benefit of humanity? In many cases the death of a person may be a blessing not only to the one dieing but to those still alive. How can you judge that that is not the case? Furthermore, death is nothing but a blink in time during which a transfer occurs from one life to another. As such it is neutral & harms no one.

How do you reconcile these verses from 2 Peter with your view that God does not kill:

4For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly; 7and delivered righteous Lot, sore distressed by the lascivious life of the wicked 8(for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their lawless deeds)

Jn.3:36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.’

Heb.10:28 Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Eph.5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Even temporary corrective cursing & death from God, which is not “darkness” or unloving, works for His glory & ultimate good:

2 Th.2:8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Compare:

1 Kings 22:22
"The LORD said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done.

Acts 13:9-12
9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas 10 and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord? The Lord’s hand is now upon you, and you will be blind for a time and unable to see the light of day." Instantly there fell upon him a mist and a darkness, and, as he walked about, he begged people to lead him by the hand. 12 Then the Proconsul, seeing what had happened, believed, being struck with amazement at the teaching of the Lord.’

Acts 5:1-12
1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

6Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”9Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.12The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people.

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#229

No, God doesn’t make mistakes. But Moses was not God. He made mistakes.

You quoted the account of Ananias and Sapphira. Why? Are you suggesting that God killed them? If so, that is but your idea. There is nothing in the account that indicates that God killed them. I think they died from fear.

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#230

Actually, the Calvinist site Got Questions, has a take on the story:

Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying?

It says this - in part:

But there’s also an Old Testament story, where God used a lying spirit. Which Got Questions also talks about:

Why did God use a lying spirit to deceive Ahab?

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#231

Origen, As far as Matt. 24:36 goes Jesus did not reveal the day or hour, because He didn’t know. He said that only the Father knows.
As for Col. 1:26, name one thing that Jesus or the saints taught that was not already stated in the Old Testament.

Paidion, Moses had the full knowledge of God which he gave to the Israelites. As it says in 1 Cor. 10:1-4 Moreover brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ(meaning those who had the knowledge and wisdom of God). I don’t think that all the things the Bible says came from Moses were actually from Moses.

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#232

That repeats what the verse - Mt.24:36 - says. I asked where in the OT this is taught. Otherwise it’s a new teaching. Whereas your claim is “Jesus did not teach us anything new.”

Verse 27 of Colossians 1 refers to what v.26 speaks about.

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#233

Right you are, Origen. Indeed, Jesus taught MANY truths that were never mentioned by Moses or the OT prophets. Indeed, Jesus revealed the Father as He really is, and as He was UNKNOWN by Moses and the OT prophets.

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#234

In Matthew 5, Jesus clearly taught something “new.” Here is the passage in the New American Standard Bible:

Clearly, Jesus is not talking about not abolishing the COMMANDMENTS of the Mosaic law. He said in vs 17 above, that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. In what sense did He fulfill them? Did He keep the Mosaic law? He didn’t even keep the Sabbath command! The apostle John declares in his gospel that Jesus broke the sabbath:

So, if Jesus didn’t keep the Mosaic law or even the fourth of the ten commandments, then in what sense did He fulfill the law and the prophets? He fulfilled the PREDICTIONS of the law and the prophets. Clearly Isaiah 53 was a prophecy concerning the Anointed One. Jesus also said that Moses wrote about Him:

Is Jesus speaking about keeping and teaching the Mosaic law? No, He is speaking about keeping and teaching the basic Law of God upon which the Mosaic law IN PART is based, but which greatly differs from the Mosaic law. Jesus then goes on to give the particulars of these differences:

Jesus is not satisfied with the command to refrain from murder. He goes well beyond it. You must not even insult your brother.

Again He goes beyond the command to refrain from adultery. Even desiring some man’s wife (The Greek word for “woman” and “wife” is the same) is to commit adultery in your heart and mind.

So Jesus’ words are contrary to those of the Mosaic law which permitted divorce and remarriage. Isn’t that a “new teaching”?

Jesus’ teaching is not only to refrain from making false oaths, but not to make any oaths at all! NEW TEACHING.

Formerly revenge was the order of the day. But Jesus teaches the opposite—Non-resistance. And if a person force you to give him your possessions, let him have them. If forces you in other ways, do twice as much as he asks. Notice that Jesus doesn’t say that revenge is God’s command, or even Moses’ but simply says, "“You have heard that it was said…”

I’m not sure where this command has its source. It’s not part of the Mosaic law, but perhaps it came into Jewish law much later. Jesus says that a person who, in a practical way, loves those who hates him, shows himself to be a true child of God. For God doesn’t hate those who hate Him, but gives sunshine and rain to everyone! Hmmmmm… Not the way God is depicted by Moses is it? Moses says that He gave commands to kill His enemies!

WOW! We constantly hear people saying that nobody’s perfect and nobody CAN be perfect. Who are we going to believe? These people or Jesus?
Jesus wouldn’t ask us to be perfect like God if it were impossible, would He?

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#235

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

WOW! We constantly hear people saying that nobody’s perfect and nobody CAN be perfect. Who are we going to believe? These people or Jesus?
Jesus wouldn’t ask us to be perfect like God if it were impossible, would He?

Jesus also said that if our eye or hand causes us to sin then cut it off or out but we know he was using hyperbole so i think Jesus said something like strive for perfection rather then literally be perfect like God.

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#236

I can see the hyperbole in “cutting off your hand” or “plucking out your eye” if they cause you to stumble.

But I don’t see becoming perfect as hyperbole. James seemed to think that perfection was possible:

The apostle Paul admitted that he was not perfect, and yet by making the effort, he expected to reach perfection:

“Completed” — that’s what “perfect” means. It does not mean “flawless.”

Even Jesus, though sinless throughout His life, wasn’t always perfect. He had to LEARN obedience, and that together with His suffering made Him perfect:

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#237

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)

“Completed” — that’s what “perfect” means. It does not mean “flawless.”

Paul also said he was the chief sinner. Was he the chief sinner? Not likely but on the other hand i’ve heard that perfect actually means “mature.”

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#238

Boy. The Calvinist site Got Questions, has some interesting things to say.

What does the Bible say about perfectionism?

Let me quote a bit - from their answer:

Oh, my God. They do put things concisely. :laughing:

Let’s see what they think - the Biblical word means:

It looks like they agree with Paidion - I think. :slight_smile:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e50d9e9e2ef2f05365437a4675d8e7d6/tenor.gif

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#239

I take it that things like omniscience, omnipresence & omnipotence are excluded from the definition of “perfect” as Jesus meant it in Mt.5:48.

The Greek word τέλειος (Strongs # 5049) has been translated in other ways:

“having reached its end, finished, mature, complete, perfect;”

studylight.org/lexicons/greek/5046.html

“In the LXX…the word means “unblemished”, “undivided”, “complete”, “whole”…” (TDNT, Vol.8, p.72).

It is used in the following verses:

You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. (Dt.18:13)

These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. (Gn.6:9)

Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. (Ex.12:5)

“In Greek thought and usage τέλειος often means “totality”…This justifies the rendering of corresponding Hebrew terms by τέλειος, primarily in Mt…The context in each case supplies the reference. In Mt.5:48 the “whole” applies to conduct in relation to men. God is fully “undivided” in this…As God is unrestricted in His goodness, so according to v.48 the disciples of Jesus should be “total” in their love, bringing even their enemies…within its compass” (TDNT, Vol.8, p.73-4).

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#240

Yes, He did.

As John says, “the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (Jn.1:17).

And “God is love”.

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