The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo

#141

Bingo. Thank you for that, Origen! (Btw, do you have something on the past-present-future tenses of redemption? Of sanctification?)

Here is a quote:

As to our future salvation, I made the argument earlier in this discuss that the Rapture will be a rescue.

(sō’-zō,* to save,* keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction, make whole, heal.)

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#142

First, we need to know that from which we are being saved. This is what the angel said to Joseph, the husband of Mary:

We are being saved from our sins, that is from sinning itself. That takes at least a lifetime.

True, regeneration takes place in an instant. We are not instantly saved from sin, and are righteous persons at the moment of regeneration. Yes, we are “begotten again” or “regenerated.” However, that is but our entrance into the door of salvation. After a lifetime of growth we will be born into the resurrection. That is our second birth.

In the natural order of things, a child is first begotten; then he grows in his mother’s uterus for 9 months, and finally is born. His begetting is but the beginning of his life. Similarly, in the spiritual, our begetting is but the beginning of our spiritual life and growth and salvation from sin.

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#143

I am not attributing the works of God to Satan. I am attributing the works of Satan to Satan (who I believe is a real person). And I argue against attributing the works of Satan to God.

As I said elsewhere,

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#144

And yet HERE you clearly state this…

CLEARLY then, given your lack of trust in Peter (highlighted above) your theology must likewise question the veracity of Paul’s… “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable…” of 2Tim 3:16. This again is a good demonstration of the slippery slope of positional convenience; consider again…

Simple question Hermano… YES or NO. Was the writer of Genesis inspired to write… “So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created.:question: :question: :question: Who was speaking… God or Satan :question: :astonished:

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#145

I think salvation can be progressive throughout one’s lifetime. However,salvation can also be instantaneous or it can happen quickly over a short period of time. I suppose it depends upon the person and what he/she has experienced. For example, trauma or disaster, news of a terminal illness or near death experience may suddenly wake you up to what is really important in life. On the contrary, I don’t see progressive salvation happening as far as humanity itself is concerned.

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but yes evil still exists, and men have not stopped trying to rule the world via their own methods. This is why the words of the Bible are still relevant today. They are the voices of the past giving warning and instruction to children of the future.

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#146

There is our present redemption in Christ:

in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Col.1:14)
and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. (Rom.3:24)
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, (Eph.1:7)
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (Gal.3:13)
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, (1 Cor.1:30)

There is also our future redemption:

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (Rom.8:23)
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Eph.1:14)
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph.4:30)

The Greek word for redemption in all those verses is Strongs #629 apolutrósis:
biblehub.com/colossians/1-14.htm

Other Greek words seem to express the same or a similar meaning, such as:

who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. (1 Tim.2:6)
knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,(1 Pt.1:18)
who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, (Titus 2:14)
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (Acts 20:28)

The Greek word - Strongs #629 apolutrósis - speaks of deliverance through redemption, so it can be spoken of as both past, present, on-going process, & future. Just like salvation. Man is a tripartite being. When we are regenerated Christ becomes one with our spirit (1 Cor.6:17). That which is born of the Spirit is our spirit (Jn.3:6), not our soul or body. The Lord be with your spirit (2 Tim.4:22; Gal.6:18; Phil.4:23; Phie.1:25). Yet our soul - mind, emotion & will - remains a battle ground in need of daily salvation (Rom.12:1-2, etc) as long as we live in this world. And our mortal bodies are dying & will yet be saved from corruption & or death. The same could be said of redemption, salvation & sanctification; they are all past, present & future.

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#147

How long can “free will” resist God? It will be as long & painful as Love Omnipotent needs it to be, specially suited to each unique individual.

I’ll just refer to some Scripture passages:

The lake of fire is called second death. The devil & others in it are said to be “tormented” into the “ages of the ages” (Rev.20:10-15).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into AIONIAN fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt.25:41)

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.” (Rev.2:11)

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#148

There is going to be a great divide - between what “various” Protestant denominations, the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church -says what constitutes salvation. See the Wiki article en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_in_Christianity

This is the position of Orthodox theology (and they don’t quote Bible verses - out of context): :wink:

Also notice that the article makes different presentations on Calvinism, Lutheranism, Arminianism and Churches of Christ.

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#149

Are you certain that your assessment of what I do is correct, Davo? Do you presume that when God inspires a man to write, that He supernaturally preserves the man’s writing from error? That concept can be found throughout Fundamentalist teaching. I know you have departed a long way from Fundamentalism. But could this be one aspect of it that you have retained?

You state that Hermano and I are attributing the works of God to Satan. Of course, in stating this, you presume that every violent act that Moses attributes to God, is in fact an act of God. This position seems to grow naturally out of the position that God preserves from error the writers He inspires. Clearly this is not the case. Here are just two examples:

Example 1:

These words are not found in Jeremiah. Similar words are found in Zechariah 11:12-13. It would seem that the inspired Matthew didn’t remember correctly the name of the author. God who inspired him did not jog his memory or preserve his gospel from containing an error. Of course, defenders of inerrancy point out that Matthew wrote “SPOKEN by the prophet Jeremiah” nor “Written by the prophet Jeremiah.” That is true, but proves nothing since it was Matthew’s custom to write “spoken by the prophet” in cases where the prophecies were actually written by the prophet. For instance, Matthew wrote in Matt 8:17

And we know that Isaiah wrote these words in Isaiah 53:4.

Example 2:

Jude was quoting from the book of Enoch. It was a common view among early Christians that the book of Enoch was written by the historic Enoch, the seventh from Adam. But it wasn’t. It was written no earlier than the third century before Christ. In Enoch 14:9 we read, “The chief of the East, among the Parthians and Medes shall remove kings, in whom a spirit of perturbation shall enter. They shall hurl them from their thrones, springing as lions from their dens, and like famished wolves into the midst of the flock.” However the Parthians were unknown in history until 250 years before Christ. So, though God inspired Jude to write his letter, God did not preserve him from stating that Enoch from which Jude’s quote was drawn, was that historic Enoch, the seventh from Adam.

Now Davo, if you insist that Hermano and I are attributing the works of God to Satan, because we say that the OT atrocities that Moses ascribed to God were NOT the acts of God, you’ll have to argue with Jesus. NEVER in the recorded words of Jesus will you find him having said that God commanded the Israelites to kill whole populations, men, women, children, and babies. NEVER will you find Jesus saying that the word of God is to stone to death a disobedient son. NEVER will you find Jesus saying that God’s law required people to cut off women’s hands without mercy for a particular offence. On the contrary, Jesus said that the Heavenly Father is kind to both ungrateful people and to evil people, and that we will show ourselves to be his children if we do the same.(Luke 6:35).

I am a Christian, and so I will go by the words of Jesus concerning the character of God—not by the words of Moses. The two do not harmonize.

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#150

Based on past evidence… YEP pretty much!

NOPE — and here’s your tour-de-error… assuming one can accept textual error/s without feeling the need to radically change the obvious meaning of given texts, i.e., where your questionable theological assumptions drives a change in the text where one is NOT naturally given.

As usual Paidion you simply duck and weave away from rational arguments obfuscating out with the cows padding out your posts with irrelevant fluff not germane to the topic at hand as your means of avoiding difficulties your positions inevitably raise.

Question… It would appear from the Genesis text of Moses that GOD sentenced Adam to death for eating some fruit… do you agree this was the case, i.e., that GOD sentenced Adam to death, and IF so — how atrocious is this in terms of ‘the character of God’ as you would have it.

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#151

In Matthew 16:17, Peter was commended by Jesus for speaking things inspired by God—that Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Yet merely six verses later, Peter was confronted by Jesus for speaking things inspired by Satan—“Get behind Me, Satan!”

In the Old Testament, a prophet speaking a prophecy that turned out to be false was to be stoned to death (as per, for example, Deut. 18:20). But in the New, a prophet’s prophecy (not the prophet himself) is simply to be judged by the others present in the Christian meeting when it is given (1 Cor. 14:29).

Surely the Scriptures are inspired by God. I love reading the Scriptures, because they give witness to Jesus. But they must be read by the Spirit, which gives life, and not by the letter, which kills (2 Cor. 3:6).

I don’t think God dictated the Bible to his prophets, do you? As Professor C.S. Cowles said,

God wants us to engage every text with the guidance of the Holy Spirit; perhaps a given verse is mistaken at its literal level of meaning, but at some other level (for example, allegorical), it will nevertheless be Christocentric (see Luke 24:27).

If someone has cancer, and asks me to pray about it, I will pray for complete healing, knowing that this disease is not from God, because ‘by the stripes of Jesus, we were healed’ (1 Peter 2:24). I don’t ever believe God sends sickness. Sickness is from the devil, not from God—as demonstrated over and over in the gospels by the actions of Jesus, who came to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

YET Moses said, that God said to the Israelites, “…I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians….” Exodus 15:26. (“Devil? What devil? Is there such a thing as a devil?” Moses might have asked back then.) So here, Moses misattributed to God (putting diseases on people) what was actually of Satan.

Jesus is the exact representation of an unchanging God, who was, is, and will always only be, about abundant LIFE. It is Satan who is about DEATH, not God. Never God (Hebrews 2:14). As I posted elsewhere about the Scriptures showing progressive revelation:

"] …We agree that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16). But what if the Scriptures are only part of a “progressive revelation” of God’s true nature in Jesus—a revelation that keeps on growing forever? Jesus himself is, after all, THE Word of God (Revelation 19:13), and showed himself to be the arbiter of all Scripture. He said, “All authority has been given to ME in heaven and on earth.” Matthew 28:18. And,** “You have heard it was said…but I say…” Matthew 5. **

Theologian C.S. Cowles maintains that,

Professor Cowles further says,

You ask,

Moses, of course. The Moses (like many believers even today), who sometimes failed to distinguish the acts of God, from the acts of Satan.

PS re. your most recent comments to Paidion; I find your tone unloving. And I freely confess my own tone is too often unloving as well. But allow me my own responses to those comments:

  1. Speaking of your accusation of Paidion ‘radically changing the obvious meaning of given texts’: that, to me, pretty much sums up “pantelism.”

  2. And as to ‘God sentencing Adam to death,’ it never happened. “Warning” and “sentencing" are two different things:

*“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” * Genesis 2:17.

God doesn’t kill people; Satan does. Hebrews 2:14. (I believe the Holy Spirit is surely trying to bear witness to you about this truth, brother.)

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#152

Gosh… isn’t that sounding awfully like Paidion’s dreaded “*I suppose one could declare that everything is the above passage is to be taken figuratively—so figuratively that the passage loses its meaning altogether. *” Ooops :laughing:

With all due respect Hermano… this is a forum contending ideas, NOT a love-fest.

Well yeah that’s ok… it’s one thing to say that, yet quite another to show it.

**
To whom** then Hermano are you attributing… “you shall surely die” — to God, to Satan or Moses?

Can you please give your position’s explanation as to HOW and WHY it was that God apparently and continuously allowed Moses to put his own words into the mouth of God, i.e., Moses atrociously misattributing Satan’s works as being God’s works. How was it Moses was not struck down?
As for your… “God doesn’t kill people; Satan does.” So you have Satan doing God’s handiwork… what’s the difference? If you give the wink and a nod to have someone killed, you are 100% complicit. If at the cavalier wave of God’s hand Satan put said diseases on the Egyptians THEN for all intents and purposes GOD DID IT, i.e., without God’s permission such death and destruction would not have occurred — for a biblical example have a look at Job 1:11-12.

Was Paul now in good company with Peter and Moses and the other OT prophets, being in error, when he said God will send a delusionary lie that wreaks condemnation — or is it more palatable to say Satan was working on God’s behalf?…

You noted elsewhere…

Was John in good company with the likes of Peter, Paul, Moses and the other OT prophets, being in error, when he attributes “wrath” to God…

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#153

To which Davo replied:

This kind of reply is typical of Davo. Davo seldom, if ever, admits to any weakness on his part. I used to be disturbed by his personal attacks, and when I complained, he turned it around as being MY weakness. But no need to be concerned, Hermano. I’m getting accustomed to Davo’s tactics, and now it’s but “water off a duck’s back” as far as I am concerned. When he is unable to rationally defend his ideas, he resorts to attack; it is his way. I’m beginning to be amused by it.

I’m glad you are reading C.S. Cowles. He truly had an understanding of the character of God. I have tried to contact him (unsuccessfully). I thought he may have died, but was unable to determine so from internet searches. Just this morning, by using the dogpile search engine, I discovered that he died on August 7 of this year.

There is a book

Cowles presents his view first, and the others give their replies. The same with the other three views (each of which differs little from the other two).

Cowles quotes from John Wesley (b. 1703), the Father of the Methodist movement, as one who truly understood the character of God.

This quote from Wesley is found in his work “Free Grace,” recorded in The Works of John Wesley, 7:373-86

In the very next sentence, Cowles quotes Walter Wink:

This statement is found in Walter Wink’s Engaging the Powers (Minneapolis: Fortress 1991),149

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#154

Thanks for the update about the passing of Professor C.S. Cowles, Paidion. But I still look forward to thanking him personally :exclamation:

Sad to say, his pdf article, “Scriptural Inerrancy? Behold, I Show You A More Excellent Way,” from which I’ve drawn my quotes, has recently been removed from the server at Point Loma Nazarene University.

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#155

From what I understand, the Sons of God were given the power and wisdom to execute judgment(trample the head of the serpent) on evilness. This power was not to be taken lightly or abused in any way. According to Ezekiel 3:18-19, a certain protocol had to be followed. “When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give them no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.”
This warning was the “trumpet call”, a call to repentance, in which a man was sent to preach or proclaim the word of God (the same word the Jesus preached) giving people a chance to turn and be saved (grace period), before said destruction took place.

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#156

God will send them strong delusion (2 Thess.2:11), in context:

2 Th.2:8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Compare:

1 Kings 22:22
"The LORD said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done.

Acts 13:9-12
9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas 10 and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord? The Lord’s hand is now upon you, and you will be blind for a time and unable to see the light of day." Instantly there fell upon him a mist and a darkness, and, as he walked about, he begged people to lead him by the hand. 12 Then the Proconsul, seeing what had happened, believed, being struck with amazement at the teaching of the Lord.’

Acts 5:1-12
1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

6Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”9Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.12The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people.

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#157

^^^^^^^^^^^Apart from ignoring the text I guess their only answer is… it was ‘Satan’ alone.

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#158

Hermano said:

I’m not sure if you are saying that all the people every year that die of cancer and have prayed (to God) fervently for healing are in some way not praying or living the right way, or are you saying that all the people who die and have prayed fervently to God to be cured are praying to a God that is less powerful that this satan entity? :confused:

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#159

Both these so-called examples only point out historical inaccuracieswell even Jesus made that mistake!

But YOU, NOT the bible, have made Moses, in essence, utter blasphemes by declaring in the name of God works/actions YOU SAY were, in fact, the works/actions of Satan. That actually makes one wonder WHO is blaspheming. And you STILL refuse to answer WHY God didn’t deal with Moses’ atrocious sins of misrepresentation in attributing Satan’s works/actions as His, as you advocate such to be.

Question… It would appear from the Genesis text of Moses that GOD declares death upon Adam for eating some fruit… do you agree this was the case, i.e., that GOD declares death upon Adam, and IF so, how do you justify this in terms of ‘the character of God’ as you would have it.

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#160

Well, I would agree with Hermano, that “by his stripes we are healed” and “God does not send sickness”. But if Hermano is saying… that the Devil is equal to or more powerful than God…II would have to admittedly disagree. After all, God created the devil. Even though the devil, was initially one of the good guys.

Which raises a variation, of a old philosophical puzzle:

:laughing:

Well, here are some answsers:

creation.com/if-god-can-do-anything-then-can-he-make-a-being-more-powerful-than-himself-omnipotence
carm.org/can-god-create-a-being-more-powerful-than-himself
quora.com/Can-the-Christian-God-create-something-more-powerful-than-himself-Equation-wise-how-would-this-work

It’s all really a variation, of the omnipotence paradox at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

As far as Davo’s posts go, let’s put them in a time capsule. If in a million years or so - the earth is still standing… and Christian historians dig up the time capsule - they would say: "

" :exclamation: :laughing:

And as far as prayer goes. Roman Catholic priest Father A., has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God. He always says:

Don’t ask me about the “something better for eternity” part. I have no clue. :laughing:

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