The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo

#121

Please take another look at the futurist explanation of which “generation” Jesus is actually referring to–with supporting examples–which I shared previously with you:

0 Likes

#122

Let me clarify that I believe the occupants of hell, like those here in the land of the living, are still under the influence of Satan.

Perhaps when I said hell is directed by Satan, instead of “directed,” I should have said “manipulated” or “taken advantage of,” as he certainly has NOT been assigned any responsibilities there by God. Nor is hell in any way Satan’s place of residence: he is still roaming the earth.

Satan has been defeated, but he is still able to torment and afflict those who don’t know how to resist him through the victory of Jesus:

0 Likes

#123

With all due respect to A. E. Bloomfield’s inventive interpretations I find the historical and textual-laden accuracy of Jesus’ words more convincing, wherein Jesus himself provides the specific reference for understanding who “this generation” stands for; no sleight of hand nor arm-twisting is needed to see EXACTLY WHO Jesus speaks of, i.e., Jesus wasn’t speaking glibly over their dull heads, no, He was speaking directly to THEM…

The Pharisees then and there were seeking a sign, not some distant none existent people; Jesus was specifically answering to THEM!

According to this verse… at which generation’s hands did Jesus specifically suffer rejection? You cannot skirt around the issue as the answer is bleedingly obvious.

Hermano… pantelism accepts the plain sense of this verse when no other sense makes common sense other than the plain sense — so how do you explain this text away? IF the parousia is still yet to occur WHERE are these old people?

0 Likes

#124

But I’m a bit different - as a futurist. I predict a tribulation, of a different sort. In the up and coming Zombie apocalypse (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse). Don’t say I didn’t warn you :wink:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/glee/images/c/cd/Sam_zombie_apocalypse_lol.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150208192942

0 Likes

#125

Origen:

Do you not think the LOF is long and painful? What do you think it is?

0 Likes

#126

Davo, if the LOF refers to an event that took place on Earth, in what sense was Satan cast into it?

0 Likes

#127

Well, my position is closer to that of Hermano’s.

Christ’s work on the cross is an accomplished fact. But each one’s personal salvation is a process.

As Paul put it:

The “day of Jesus Christ.” His second coming is yet future. It didn’t happen in 70 A.D.

The following passage (including the part I didn’t quote) makes abundantly clear the conditions when Christ returns:

Were all nations gathered before Jesus in 70 A.D.? Were all those nations judged by Him at that time? To hold that they were is to blindly cling to Preterism in spite of all evidence to the contrary. Of course,I suppose one could declare that everything is the above passage is to be taken figuratively—so figuratively that the passage loses its meaning altogether.

I have read Josephus’s account of the sacking of Jerusalem around 70 A.D. in “The Wars of the Jews.” Basically all that happened is that while most of the Jews were happy enough to be under Roman Rule, the Zealots kept attacking the Romans. The Roman Government was pretty patient about these attacks for a long time, but they finally had enough and came in with armies and overtook them, and destroyed the temple.

To read into those events all the predictions of Jesus, as preterists do, is in my opinion, ludicrous.

0 Likes

#128

I agree with Davo in that the lake of fire is biblical language for earthly events (war and destruction), as in these verses
Exodus 9:23 “Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky and the lord sent thunder and hail and fire ran down to the earth.”
2 Samuel 22:9 “Smoke went out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured.”
Genesis 19:24 “Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.”

As it says in Romans 9:29 “unless the Lord had left us descendants we would have been like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.”
Isaiah 1:7-9 also says this: “Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire; strangers devour your land in your presence; and it is desolate.as overthrown by strangers. Unless the Lord of hosts had left us a very small remnant, we would have become like Sodom, we would have become like Gomorrah.”

This is why I say that these parousias are reoccurring events. They happened before and after Jesus and continue to happen because evil still exists.

0 Likes

#129

I believe this is why the Jewish people say that Jesus was not the Christ/ Messiah

0 Likes

#130

Or the lake of fire, could be all - being in the presence of God. And we experience heaven or hell, depending on our closeness to Christ. Which is a take, on Eastern Orthodox theology. However, if we argue on this forum…for whether the sea in Revalations is, a literal body of water…or how they used language…to denote bad stuff…in the Old Testament…Etc…Etc…We have a long ways to go, regarding the lake of fire.

See orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=26914.0- for example:

Let’s dedicate a song, to this lake of fire - at https://youtu.be/mIBTg7q9oNc :laughing:

0 Likes

#131

I’m a preterist, so I think there’s a good chance the LOF referred to the destruction of Jerusalem. I wonder where Satan fits in though.

0 Likes

#132

I agree. However, the lake of fire being referred to must be put into context. It is compared to Sodom and Gomorrah ( as in Romans 9:29 and Isaiah 1:7-9)

As Ephesians 6:12 says, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”,in other words,tyranny, totalitarianism, those who seek to rule the world via there own way and not the way according to God.

0 Likes

#133

The Eastern Orthodox may well be right. In C.S. Lewis’s The Last Battle in his Narnian series, The bad dwarfs as well as the good ones all ended up in Aslan’s Country. But the bad dwarfs thought they were still in the stable, and that the food offered them was rotten turnips left by the cows, and that the choicest wine was urine from the troughs behind the cows.

Also, Randy, the Eastern Orthodox, like myself, believe that salvation from sin for the individual, is progressive throughout one’s lifetime.

Check out [

(I still don’t know how to make a youtube video play on a posting)**Are You Saved? **](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjHGtCHyBrU&t=2s)

0 Likes

#134

Actually, Don, I’m in accord with the progressive viewpoint also. As expressed by the Eastern Orthodox and yourself. :smiley:

If you wish to embed a video in PPHBB (what we have here)…make sure it is http and not https. So your video embedded looks like this:

Just do a quote of this and observe the code. For some reason, the youtube code you have - brings it up. But needed to be tweaked - to embed it. :smiley:

0 Likes

#135

[size=150]AH HAH! Thank you Randy![/size]

0 Likes

#136

Really enjoyed that.

0 Likes

#137
0 Likes

#138

The Three Tenses of Salvation…have been, are being, shall be:

ligonier.org/blog/3-tenses-gospel/

0 Likes

#139

As a pantelist, and so not necessarily as a prêterist… in the sense that regardless of how one views “satan” i.e., angelic/human/metaphor, such no longer exists to where such a one had influence beyond the times of the OC world; which seems to be biblically speaking the domain of satan’s machinations — redemption and reconciliation were on the verge of fullness and such wouldn’t be accomplished without a last gasp fight (Rev 20:3; Rom 16:20).

It is way too easy and has been the habit from A&E downward to blame the devil for our own evils. “Evil” is simply wrong done by one, either individually or collectively, to another. Evil is NOT some ethereal mystical entity, power or force of its own existence. Way too many so-called believers hold to a Christianised ‘Yin Yang’. To the degree humanity learns to practice Jesus’ key of “love thy neighbour” to that degree blessing will flow.

0 Likes

#140

In light of the implications of Jesus’ words here…

…it could be totally feasible and at least consistent to understand Jesus’ words… “all the nations” to be speaking to or of the nations of Israel, i.e., the twelve tribes of Israel. According to their own scriptures this notion is not unfounded…

cf. Gen 17:20; 25:16; 48:4, 19

I always crack a wry smile :sunglasses: when you trot out this ole’ chestnut given your own proclivity to do in-kind whenever it suits you, e.g., when you try and explain away “as mistaken” the words of the likes of Moses or other prophets not to your liking. I think it is indeed true when you say… “my position is closer to that of Hermano’s” — he however is quite straight-forward in attributing the works of God to Satan… scary stuff IMO. :astonished:

0 Likes