The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A Calvinist reaches out to other Calvs on grief about hell

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Super sad anonymous letter posted by a fellow apologist and Calv associate of mine (whose ministry I’ve supported in other regards over the past year), at his weblog, looking for replies to “John Doe” in the comments.

reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 … e-in-hell/

I realize this is going to set off the sympathies of some members in ways which are going to be ultra-hostile to Calvinism (and to some Calvinists). Especially when those members read some of the replies. :angry:

Under the circumstances, I’m willing to let that slide for this thread, although I’d prefer people keep their temper. (And other admins may be less willing to let anti-Calv hostility slide, so be careful.)

I’ve been trying to build up a good relationship with CMP and some of the other regular Calvinistic contributors to the comments, and they aren’t going to be impressed by raving opponents; but at the same time, I realize this is precisely the sort of thing worth raving about if anything is. I’ve had to forcibly restrain myself from shotgunning the more heartless commenters in that thread myself.

I know several members frequent Credo House / Reclaimingthemind, and the main reasons I’m making a thread about that post here are to point members to pastoral care for the JD, while also providing a place they can let off steam safely.

Please, if members comment there, stick to CMP’s requested format, and don’t go after fellow commenters. Just reply to “John Doe”. If you have to vent, vent here. (I realize other commenters have started disputing among themselves in that thread already, but you don’t have to violate CMP’s request along with them. :wink: )

#2

Poor guy! I didn’t read the other comments as I didn’t want to become angry, but I did leave a comment. Hopefully John Doe can find some peace. :frowning: If strict Calvinism DOESN’T upset a person, then THAT person is the crazy one, imo. John Doe seems completely sane insofar as his reasoning – given he has sufficient cause to actually believe that stuff. Of course, the believing of it isn’t a good sign . . .

#3

You know, if I didn’t know better, and I don’t, but I don’t say this to sound flippant, but this sounds like someone who would deliberately write something like this for the express purpose of refuting Calvinism, or at least double predestination. It is the sort of letter that is intended to provoke thought through an emotional plea. I began to feel that way when this person slid the “Stockholm-Syndrone, Battered woman, masochistic” laments into the fray, coupled with sly connection of Fred Phelps to Jonathan Edwards with the “God Hates” comparisions. It sounds like a dubious attempt to rattle some cages.

God help him if he is sincere. But I have my reservations about this “John Doe”'s motivations to write in anonymity with so crass a tone.

If I’m wrong, forgive me.

#4

I thought similar Dondi but now actually think John Doe is severely depressed. He sounds it and I remember having similar thoughts of despair, having over read and over studied everything to do with hellfire, damnation and Calvinism.

I actually read some very thoughtful comments. Not reading any further in case I reach the blood boiling ones!

#5

CMP presumably knows the real name of the person he received the letter from, but even assuming he doesn’t, or even assuming the letter to him was entirely spurious to begin with, that just makes it more strange that CMP, a dedicated Calv, would post it on a popular Calv board he helps run.

He isn’t the sort of person, from past experience, to flippantly dismiss someone else’s pain for sake of theological principle (even when he agrees with the theology as true and so wants to promote it for sake of the truth), so that doesn’t seem to be the reason he posted it – besides, he would have added his own dismissive rebuttal to it!

He has shown some quiet indications in the past year of being unsatisfied with Calv soteriology, despite believing that’s the only best way to account for the scriptural data. He has strong pastoral concerns, and someone in his position must run into this sort of thing a lot. (He also helps run what is now the busiest coffee shop in Oklahoma, thanks to using it as an evangelical outreach and apologetics center, with many notable theologians and apologists helping out and networking with it.)

Whatever the intentions of the original author may have been, I don’t believe from experience with him that CMP would be trying to troll his own apologetics board. Specifically why he did it, I can’t quite tell, but I have trouble believing his intentions are anything other than good: at least concern for people of the sort represented (if less colorfully) by the author of the article.

#6

I don’t think any human mind is capable of pouring over studies of hellfire and eternal torment without sinking into a mindset of despair. I’d be more worried if John Doe hadn’t experienced such thoughts. He recognizes that his currently theology disturbs him – and that realization in itself disturbs him. But through writing down his concerns, I think John Doe has started on the path of confronting his despair and anxiety. I hope and pray he experiences God’s peace and perfect love soon.

#7

We’ll said Kate. I recognise that journey myself. I remember making the breakthrough one night to believing thru and thru that universalism is true. The despair shattered, the shadows fell away and suddenly I had inner stillness and peace. I made my first YouTube video to celebrate visually that ecstatic moment. Hopefully our John Doe is on that pathway. And maybe even the original poster

#8

Thanks, Jael.:slight_smile: I had that same moment, too. It took me months to even do a simple Google search on something as “heretical” as universal reconciliation, but when I finally read about it, I cried. So much fear lifted from my heart, and I felt like I could come to God as I had when I had first accepted Christ almost a decade before. It’s such a wonderful stillness!

I would love to see your YouTube video. There aren’t many Christian universalist testimonies out there, but I think there really should be! Is there any better news that Christ saves all? :slight_smile:

#9

I don’t remember the very first time I was exposed to the truth, but I was certainly in my late 50’s, and as soon as I heard the doctrine, everything I’d thought about and studied and worried about and dreamed about fell into place as naturally and easily as if I had been hearing it calling all my life, and I just had not known what it was.

#10

CMP’s father passed on yesterday, so if anyone’s thinking of adding something to the thread, it’s probably too late to do so without seeming crass.

#11

I’ve got two words to say about John Doe’s email: cognitive dissonance. There we see the naked, horrible, torturing, irreconcilable angst of hard-core Calvinism :frowning: .