A different tact

[davidbo]

I’ve tried this argument for EU a few times and thought I’d throw it out here. This line of reasoning was actually a huge part of my own EU conversion. It’s probably been discussed here before I just haven’t looked to see.

Here goes.

First a question:

Before God created everything (as in Genesis 1) was there evil, sin, pain, suffering, unrighteousness, and death? In other words, has this bad stuff always been around and has it always existed in or along with God?

Most Christians would emphatically say no to this I think. (I’ve not gotten a “yes” response to this yet.)

Next question:

Does this bad stuff exist now? (I realize the word exist has some implications but I just mean in the plain sense.)

Most Christians would say yes to this I think.

Last question:

Will evil, sin, pain, suffering, unrighteousness, and death always exist from now on?

This is where the strange facial expressions begin to emerge.

You get the point.

Answering either yes or no to that last question has serious implications for the typical ECTer.

I’ve had some interesting conversations with people related to this. The most common way to answer “yes” and not imply that bad stuff is indeed part of God is to say that hell and its eternal inhabitants are separate from God. However this implies that going forward the bad stuff will forever co-exist with God - sort of a ying-yang thing.

Comments?

[SLJ]

David,

I think that’s a great way to get people thinking. I’m not sure how I would have answered that before UR. It doesn’t make sense to say that it will continue to exist somewhere apart from God if it has been conquered and destroyed. Nor does it make sense to say that if you believe God is omnipresent. As David (the King) says, “Where can I flee from Thy presence?” God – the Light of the world which destroys all darkness – cannot be escaped.

I’ll have to remember that and use it as a conversation starter sometime!

Thanks,
Sonia

[corpselight]

that’s a cool bit of logic there…
nice different perspective!

i don’t know if it’s similar, but i wondered how God would cope with the sadness, throughout eternity, of the lost suffering apart from Him…
that was something that convinced me…why would God condemn HIMSELF to suffer for eternity when the Bible clearly teaches He loves the wicked and wants them to repent!

it does seem to stretch the boundaries of reason that suffering and death and evil would exist forever

[TotalVictory]

Hi David:

Yes, it’s good… except for me has not been quite as helpful, because I was raised (and now worship) in a denomination that holds to annihilation(ism). So that means ECT is off the table and annihilation is seen as something like “the best God could do”. Thus for me I’ve found this idea to be more useful/fruitful…

i don’t know if it’s similar, but i wondered how God would cope with the sadness, throughout eternity, of the lost suffering apart from Him…

I came to find it absolutely chilling that God could come as Jesus, then later turn around and be able to so comfortably move on without many of HIs own children! The promise of “no more tears” seemed a cruel hoax, or deception.
Many similar ideas are linked to this general idea of course. For example the notion that death is defeated, and is no more, surely rings very hollow if death in fact yet holds her winnings in some tomb.

So my approach is a bit different – but by necessity. My denomination believes in the superiority of it’s handling of the problem of ECT (ie with annihilation) and so, seeing it’s superiority, sees no reason to go any further!

Courage then David as you raise leading and logical questions!!!

Bobx3

[WE_ARE_ALL_BROTHERS]

For me, I’m saddened that Yahweh, not I, would be eternally unsatisfied. In Arminianism, His love is forever unreciprocated and thwarted. In Calvinism, His justice (despite that they were cruelly made for destruction) is forever unmet – He would always need another eternity for sinners to pay their infinite sins. In either school, Yahweh is eternally unsatisfied, in fact, eternally suffering (in a Hell) as Corpselight said.

[pilgrim]

I can’t improve on the brilliant posts here. -Just want to thank you -corpselight, Bobx3, WAAB for those posts.

[Melchizedek]

I’ve tried this argument for EU a few times and thought I’d throw it out here. This line of reasoning was actually a huge part of my own EU conversion. It’s probably been discussed here before I just haven’t looked to see.

Here goes.

First a question:

Before God created everything (as in Genesis 1) was there evil, sin, pain, suffering, unrighteousness, and death? In other words, has this bad stuff always been around and has it always existed in or along with God?

Most Christians would emphatically say no to this I think. (I’ve not gotten a “yes” response to this yet.)

Next question:

Does this bad stuff exist now? (I realize the word exist has some implications but I just mean in the plain sense.)

Most Christians would say yes to this I think.

Last question:

Will evil, sin, pain, suffering, unrighteousness, and death always exist from now on?

This is where the strange facial expressions begin to emerge.

You get the point.

Answering either yes or no to that last question has serious implications for the typical ECTer.

I’ve had some interesting conversations with people related to this. The most common way to answer “yes” and not imply that bad stuff is indeed part of God is to say that hell and its eternal inhabitants are separate from God. However this implies that going forward the bad stuff will forever co-exist with God - sort of a ying-yang thing.

Comments?

This is good.
I LOl’ed at the “ying yang thing”, as that is certainly where the argument for ECT comes from, in my opinion
For future reference, you will want to say Yin/ Yang