Strangely, one rather common NDE is that of walking through a long tunnel and seeing a light at the end, and then at the end of the tunnel filled with ecstacy. This experience has been common to both Christians and non-Christians who have been near death. I have no idea why there should be such a common NDE for so many people, but I cannot see why it would be any less (or more) valid than that of those who seem to experience visions of excruciating suffering in hell.
Lizabeth,
I see what you mean about this being hurtful to people who do suffer clinical depression. I hadn’t even considered that aspect of the video, even though my own brother died that way. Anyway, I’m sorry you were hurt, and I’m sorry you’ve suffered.
Kelli
Paidion,
I have been intrigued with NDE’s since my daughter died, and that interest was part of my path toward looking into EU. The common experience of the tunnel and light is very appealing
We are here for such a very short time, and for the most part, we live very small lives. Except for Jesus, no one gets out of here without causing a lot of pain to others. Not even Jesus gets out without suffering. It is hard for me to understand how God holds any of it against us. Someone here on the forum has talked about Jesus coming to heal the sick rather than to save us from God’s wrath. I can get behind that, although it still doesn’t explain why we are here in the first place.
One thing I can’t figure out, though, is why Jesus death didn’t cover everyone. Why do people who believe in him while alive on earth not have to suffer any of the correction of hell and people who don’t believe here do have to suffer hell until they believe? Why is his death good enough for one group but not the other? It isn’t as if Christians suddenly stop hurting people.
I am still at the beginnings of my exploration, so I hope I do not offend anyone or lead anyone astray by asking this, but…
Is it possible that Scripture is faulty and that we have the whole hell thing wrong? Why does the NT version of hell seem to be so different from the OT version of hell?
Good news is that my copy of The Inescapable Love of God showed up on my front porch today. yay!
Kelli
just my tuppence…having come to this via annihilationism, i had already removed hell from my doctrines…so for me, it feels wrong to insist on post-mortem correction in some hellish place. i believe full disclosure at judgement will do this for everyone…regardless of whether or not they’ve believed in Christ. now my specifics may be wrong, but Jesus said “many who call me Lord, Lord” will not be acceptable. many who just give a glass of water to “the least of these” will be.
so why does it matter if we follow Christ now? well because it is best to be close to God now…why wait…even if you knew your terminal disease would be cured in 100 days, why would you turn down a cure today? that’s a crap analogy, i admit, but i think there is some truth in it. also, we are part of the reconciliation plan…so us believing in Christ now are the first fruits of the harvest…the rest will come later, but God wanted to have some harvesters, even though He could do it Himself. there is joy in this work.
as for NDE’s…i have yet to hear of one single one that had any ring of truth. i believe they have proved that the tunnel of light is the mind shutting down. also, if one was predisposed to believe something, one could dream up anything about what they thought was happening. and again, when life is in danger, many report seeing “their life flash before their eyes”…seeing all your dearly departed could be that, though i remain slightly agnostic on that front. my girlfriend who’s mum is currently dying of dementia has felt the presence of her nan and grampy as she called them in life. technically, i believe when death occurs, we die…until the resurrection, but this makes me question that. i think it is actually possible God could send the spirit of a dead loved one to bring comfort. that this is perhaps the first spiritual experience my nonreligious girlfriend has had in however long, i welcome it as a sign of the benevolence of the great Heart that beats at the centre of the Universe with love for us.
as for visions of hell from stupid fraudulent tricksters as well as the deluded…no time for that at all. it doesn’t prove the existence of hell any more than that hoax about the Russian scientists drilling down into the earth in Siberia, lowering a microphone in, and recording countless screams (this WAS a hoax, btw, as interesting as it sounds…i did the digging and i’m sure could link anyone who was curious…some’s on youtube, but there was someone who traced it back to a Finnish? Norwegian? guy who did it as an experiment to see who would question and who would believe it due to the subject matter)
sorry, i seem to be all over topically…though i have occasionally managed to brush against the OP’s topic lol
I routinely point out that at least 80% of what Jesus has to say about post-mortem or eschatological punishment is aimed at lazy and/or uncharitable servants of His, up to and including the apostles themselves. Christians aren’t exempt, even if they do miracles and test for false apostles and even suffer hard blows for Christ. Everyone gets salted by fire. (A statement made during one of Jesus’ strong rebukes to the apostles, btw.)
In the judgment of the sheep and the (baby) goats, the sheep (or mature flock) are surprised to learn that they’ve ever been serving Jesus at all, which no Christian would be surprised about; the goats are surprised to learn they weren’t serving Jesus, which a Christian would be surprised about! As my ‘teacher’ C. S. Lewis used to say (including in regard to this parable), “There will be surprises.” 
(I strongly suspect his stepson who got into Christian ministry later went all the way to purgatorial universalism, although I just realized this!–I remember some alluded comments now from a lecture I heard him give at Union University many years ago.)
In one of the parables of uncharitable servants (also aimed at the apostles), the leading servant who abuses the other servants gets many lashes for his misbehavior; those who didn’t know they were doing wrong receive only a few. Once again, Christians may be punished more than non-Christians when the time comes.
Ancient (and modern) Near Middle Eastern idioms like to focus on the potential extremity of a penalty for poetic emphasis, even if the actual penalty could be very light. I tend to think most of us will receive nothing more than the equivalent of a sober or stern talking-to. All that can be healed will be healed, and all that can be excused will be excused. What remains over will be what needs forgiveness and repentance; and only people who insist on being impenitent about their sins with sufficient knowledge that these must be sins will be punished, and then no more than God sees to be proper for leading the person to repent of their sins and do better.
That’s a moderate purgatorial universalism. (Some hardcore purgatorials interpret things a lot tougher than that, but I don’t, nor do any of the purgatorialists on the board so far as I know.) If ultra-universalists are correct, on the other hand, its all healing and transformation with no post-mortem punishment per se. (We have some such people on the board here, too.)
It’s quite possible that prophets may misunderstand the revelations given to them and so inadvertently misrepresent them a bit. (This is aside from rogue prophets, of whom there are some notorious examples, too!–thus opening up the question of which other prophets went rogue without us being alerted about them.) John the Baptist seems to have misunderstood Christ’s earthly mission to involve military conquest eventually, for example. While his eschatological warnings reported in GosMatt and GosLuke add up, once the contextual math is done, to purgatorial and/or post-mortem salvation for people who are rebels in the Day of the Lord to come (specifically rebel Israelite religious leaders, such as the men he’s remonstrating at the moment), I couldn’t say for sure whether he realized that himself.
Jason,
I have much to learn about all these different views. I’ve never even heard these ideas before.
I’m sure I will have more questions as I work my way through Talbott’s book.
Kelli
I’ve watched many such videos of people’s testimonies of experiencing “Hell”; and what I find amazing is that they ALL get saved. Some are saved and experience a radical change in personality while they are dead. Others experience “Hell” and are saved, delived, healed some time after coming back to life. And there are too many testimonies for me to just dismiss them as being liars just trying to make a buck. Also, I tend to trust individuals except for some significant evidence to the contrary.
I’ve come to believe that such people are experiencing various “revelations”, whether that be dreams, visions, or reality of what Paul calls “this present evil age” which Jesus died to rescue us from! In this “Present Evil Age” people are in bondage to evil, consumed by evil from within and without, tormented, sick, diseased, depressed and oppressed souls that need healing, deliverance, salvation!
In many such testimonies people, unbelievers, cry out to God, some to Jesus specifically, and are saved. Of course, this flies in the face of the traditional doctrine of Hell which affirms that once someone goes there are hope for their salvation is gone, that there are no further chances for salvation after death. When I point this out to other Christians who see and believe these testimonies, it’s funny/sad how they respond. They get a puzzled look on thier faces and don’t know what to say or how to process that observation - that all who experience such get saved!
These people, we all interpret experiences through the lens of what we’ve been taught/heard and believe. Thus believing in Hell, these people naturally interpret their vision/dream/experience through that lens and do not consider the parts of their vision/dream/experience that doesn’t line up with what they’ve been taught concerning Hell.
I see/hear such testimonies and they only stir in me a greater compassion for the millions of tormented souls that surround me every day, tormented by terror, guilt, shame, hate, greed, and even pride and self-righteousness, my brothers and sisters, sons and daughters who do not know the love, forgiveness, grace of Our Father and who do not know how unimaginably valuable/worthy that they are simply because they are children of God, created in the image of God!
So just to state clearly and concisely what I believe regarding such NDEs.
- People truly experience such. Whether it’s a dream, vision, or reality (not in this body), who knows.
- What they experience is not “Hell or Purgatory someday” but is the spiritual reality of this “Present Evil Age Today”.
- And we shall all ultimately be saved from “this Present Evil Age” because of and through God’s love as especially revealed in the cross and ressurection of Jesus who conquered everthing and ultimately brings all into subjection and reconciliation with God!
Oh the Love of God!
I knew it was a fake as soon as you said, “700 club” 
Awesome analysis, though. 
Hi Aaron, glad to see you back online.
NDE’s are a funny phenomena that I do not claim to understand (because I haven’t had one). Like Lizabeth I’m cautious of visionary experience for personal reasons. I’ve said in previous posts lost somewhere on threads here that I suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy and was in a semi visionary state quite often in my adolescence before it was diagnosed and was given medication for it. Also like Lizabeth I’ve had problems with a form of bi-polar disorder for most of my life since the epilepsy was controlled (and possibly as a result of it being controlled) – although I have only had one serious episode of mania – and that was ten years ago, and it turned my life completely inside out.
However – I’d speak up for NDE’s in at least one instance; namely the NDE’s experienced by Julian of Norwich, the
medieval English mystic whose writing shave given so much comfort over the centuries to people afflicted by the terrors of hard ECT. I’ve been thinking about her because she was recently mentioned on another thread and I did a post about her there.
Yes Julian had some NDE’s as a young woman when on the point of death. In these she contemplated Christ’s passion and the mystery of sin and suffering and she seemed to have some special visionary revelations/shewings from Jesus. However – she didn’t go around claiming special authority for her visions. If you read the extended version of her ‘Shewings’ the visions are simply the visual backdrop of a lifetime spent recollecting and meditating on their purpose – the authority she gives them is that they have helped her to understand her experience of sin and suffering in the world and to keep faith during her own spiritual struggles. As an anchoress attached to Norwich cathedral she was also very much in touch with the suffering of others – because she was on call through her open window as a spiritual director and comforter to her fellow ordinary Christians who sought out her grounded wisdom at a time of terrible affliction – the black death, civil war, famine etc. In the Shewings she recounts her visions with great humility – always careful to state what she was curious about but was never shown clear answers to, always careful not to go beyond the teaching of ‘Holy Church’, and careful to indicate her own reflections with ‘it seemed to me’. So she was not carried away by her NDE’s.
In end the visions taught her to ground her faith in universal hope – but it was not only the visions that did this; this understanding was the fruit of a life lived lovingly and in good faith and service.
‘All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well’ was Julian of Norwich’s key insight which chimes with Hebrew’s 11 v1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of that not yet seen” And as Jesus said “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I make all things new. My word is trustworthy and true.”
Here’s a very short article about Julian that I want t paste in – in case they are of comfort to someone
Over the last few weeks, as I faced up to personal difficulties, and continue to wrestle with them, my mind keeps returning to those reassuring words from Dame Julian of Norwich:
“All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”
When she wrote those words, Dame Julian of Norwich was expressing her attitude toward life and her spirituality. Julian’s spirituality is filled with hope and confidence in the God “who loves us and delights in us,” the God who “will make all things well,” the God who created us to live fully the life we have been given.
Julian of Norwich (1342-1416) is one of the greatest English mystics. When she was 30, she suffered a severe illness and, believing she was on her deathbed, had a series of intense visions that ended on 13 May 1373. She recorded these visions and then reflected on them in theological depth 20 years later in Sixteen Revelations of Divine Love – the first book written in English by a woman.
Julian’s positive outlook does not come from ignoring suffering or being blind to it, but arises from the clarity she attained as she struggled with her own questions. This struggle gave her the ability to see beyond the pain and suffering and to look into the compassionate face of God. Only this gazing could reassure her that – despite pain, and sorrow – in God’s own time, “all shall be well.”
Julian had a heartfelt belief in a God who loves and graces us with an abundance that only God can give. And God’s love and grace placed Julian’s words before me again this morning.
According to Julian, the unfathomable mystery of love is the supreme sign of the reality of God, and sin is necessary so that we can become, as Mother Teresa of Calcutta said, “instruments of love in the hands of God.”
T.S. Eliot adapted these ideas in Little Gidding (the fourth of his Four Quartets), when he wrote:
Sin is Behovely, but
All shall be well, and
All manner of thing shall be well …
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
Mother Julian wrote: “What, do you wish to know your Lord’s meaning in this thing? Know it well, love was his meaning. Who reveals it to you? Love. What did he reveal to you? Love. Why does he reveal it to you? For love. Remain in this, and you will know more of the same. But you will never, know different, without end.” (342)
Her optimistic theology speaks of God’s love in terms of joy and compassion as opposed to law and duty. Suffering is not a punishment inflicted by God, but God loves and saves everyone. Her great saying, “All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well,” reflects this theology. It is one of the most individually famous lines in all theological writing, and is one of the most well-known phrases of the literature of her era.
Julian asked: “Ah, good Lord, how could all things be well, because of the great harm which has come through sin to your creatures?” (227).
This was God’s response to her: “And so our good Lord answered all the questions and doubts which I could raise, saying most comfortingly: I make all things well, and I can make all things well, and I shall make all things well, and I will make all things well; and you will see for yourself that every kind of thing will be well. … And in these words God wishes us to be enclosed in rest and peace.” (229)
Despite these present problems, I am sure God wishes me to be enclosed in love and rest and peace, and that I will see for myself that every kind of thing will be well. And I thank God for the friendship and love I have in life.
Canon Patrick Comerford is Director of Spiritual Formation, the Church of Ireland Theological College
Hi Lizabeth,
I’m sorry for the struggles you face with depression. That can be a horrible pit to be stuck in. And I hope that what I have to share concerning the clip does not offend you but I do see it from a different p
For some people it is a physical issue, chemical embalance or something, but rooted in physical problems. For others though depression can be rooted in patterns of thinking and emotion. It seems like the young lady in the segment was the later.
Concerning the off things she said the responders said, to me that could make her story more believable. There are some insensitive and disgusting people in all kinds of positions. If she was making something up it seems she would have come up with something more expected, like the responders acting with sympathy, grace, and professionalism. Like with so many things, it depends on which way you look at it.
Concerning her physical trauma and her rapid recovery, I believe God still works miraculous healings; so it’s possible she’s telling the truth on that. Concerning her other details about what she experienced (hell to her) like knowing the lives and sins of others, this was a reflection of her fear that others would know her, fear of what others thought of her. You are correct in that the story of what she dreamed/invisioned/experienced does seem to affirm UR, God saving her though she had committed suicide and did not have faith in Jesus. I also found it interesting how she noted that the gulf that no one could cross was crossed by God as if it wasn’t even there. Concerning her progressive healing of her emotions and spiritual growth, “IF” she truly experienced the presence of God, the love and grace of God, that had to have a tremendous positive effect on her emotions and had to have been a tremendous jump start on her spiritual journey to wholeness. It is similar to what I experienced when I was “born again” and “baptized in the Holy Spirit.” It radically changed my life, giving me a tremendous boost towards wholeness. She did not mention a psychiatrist, but it’s likely that she had much help from others, especially after having attempted suicide. She might have found studying scripture and prayer to bring her more healing though and that’s why she mentioned it.
Well, anyhow, as I mentioned in my previous post, I have a tendency to believe people when they share something. Maybe that’s because I’ve had some strange spiritual experiences myself, even hearing God speak to me and give me specific instructions. I’ve experienced misunderstanding what God said to me, though even in that I found later that by misunderstanding what he said to me it protected me from getting into even more trouble.
And though I see this clip differently than you do, know that God loves you and I do too! You are more precious than rubies and more costly than gold, more amazing than a sunset! Hang in there sis and know that you are loved more than you’ll ever know.
Blessings,
Sherman
Thanks to Jason, Kelikae and Sherman for your understanding and care. I have been fighting this MI thing for about 12 years. I have a great care team and meds that work, so mostly I am able to function pretty normally except for extra anxiety and insomnia occassionally. I can’t work because some days my meds make me really groggy so my attendence would be inconsistant.
I love Jesus very much, feel the Holy Spirit and am slowly coming to trust the Father thru them.
Sherman, I did not mean to imply the God could not cure MI, He certainly could. But what He would be curing for someone with Depression severe enough to lead to a suicide attempt is actual physical problems in parts of the brain. I don’t think that could be a slow, gentle gradual process as the parts of the brain that they know cause problems are either working properly or they are not. I also don’t believe in self diagnosis for this stuff, and she did not mention consulting any professionals—at least not while I was watching.
Usually, I give people with NDE the benefit of the doubt but her story just does not hold up in light of what I know–both in her self diagnosis and gaining extra spiritual sensory perception (knowing what the other people were thinking) in ‘hell’. We will probably gain new abilities in Heaven or the New Earth–we would almost have to to survive immortality in a healthy state, but why in ‘hell’. I fall into the dubious about Hell category anyway–as if you couldn’t tell from my other comments.
Kelikae—as I just said, I am very uncertain of the existance of Hell at all. I think the Judgement will be a kind of life review so I can learn from my mistakes and get ‘atta girls’ for what I did right. For someone who is not familar with the depth of Jesus’ love, I think it could be psychologically stunning and seeing yourself as you really were kind of shocking and self-image altering. In this life, I kind of dread the whole thing but I know Jesus will be there with me. For those that don’t know Him I think it will be the hardest thing they have ever been thru. But Jesus will be there for them too—they will just have to get to know Him and be happy in the place He has prepared.
I think the angels will have something to say, when I first had active MI symptoms I just kept thinking, “ok, if I have this thing, I am going to get some blessings out of it” I felt like Jacob, wasn’t he the one who wrestled with an angel?
Clive Staples Lewis was your ‘teacher’? Then how come he didn’t teach you that there would be people in Hell forever? Or did you get you knowledge of universal reconciliaton to God from his mentor, George MacDonald?
What bugs me about Lewis is that in his book, The Great Divorce, he puts words in the mouth of George MacDonald, who supposedly after getting to heaven, changed his mind about universal salvation.
I had a long chat one with someone who had experienced an NDE when a young man. He felt utter abandonment and lostness lying injured at the bottom of a deep well, and was unable to move or make himself heard. And then, with a vision of Jesus on the Cross, he was overwhelmed by the insight –‘Why should I be special?’. When he recovered he saw this as his call to the ministry.
My point ? – NDE’s, it seems, are different for different people. I think they can be the vehicle for genuine revelation, but this depends on discernment and response.
(Piaidon – there’s lots about Jack Lewis that bugs me too! But I’m still very fond of him for many, many reasons. Yes it was a bit over imaginative of him to reinvent George Macdonald as a character in his allegory so that Macdonald could be made to agree with him).
NDE’s which people take as literal when they see them, have no idea what they are ‘seeing’. It is actually a reflection what is going on in her mind, not a revealing of any reality a part from that.
+1!
Actually, I did get it from Lewis before I got it from MacD! I have a thread about this somewhere.
Obviously I disagree now with how Lewis occasionally violated his own logic on the issues, but historically I was and still am very much of the “Lewisian school” of theology and apologetics–now with a few supplements and corrections from his own Teacher. 
That bugs me, too, and I’ve said so several times before here on the forum. Including in that thread I mentioned.
Would you believe this woman more than the bible?
I believe NDEs are made up by one’s mind, now what do you think how the constitution of a person’s mind is that is going to commit suicide?
I would say that NDEs are not to be taken seriously wether they support our cause or not.
A proponent of ECT would laugh at you, if you wanted to back universalism on the basis of a NDE.
Hi sven, it’s not that people believe NDEs more than scripture, but a person’s experience is a reasonable foundational element of belief and understanding. Also, many people’s understanding of scripture allows for NDEs. Personally, I have not had an NDE but know one person who did. I have had a vision or out-of-body experience where I saw heaven though. Whether it was a vision or out-of-body experience, I don’t really know. “whether in the body or out” I don’t know. A person’s beliefs are based on a mixture of tradition, experience, reason, and scripture (if they accept scripture as a foundation for their beliefs). “Experience” is the most personal and least influential except for the person that experienced it. Experience can sure change one’s beliefs though; just ask Paul.