The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A quote from John Piper: God's self-centered glorification

Interesting mainly because it underscores the thinking behind all of his theology:

This was posted recently by a friend on FB

"The foundation of our justification — our acquittal, our forgiveness — is not a flimsy sentimentality in God, nor is it a shallow claim of human worth. It is the massive rock of God’s unswerving commitment to uphold the worth of his own glory, to promote the praise of his holy name and to vindicate his righteousness.

The God-centeredness of God is the foundation of his grace to the ungodly. If God were not committed first to vindicate the worth of his own glory, there would be no gospel and no hope, for their would be no glorious God."

— John Piper

Hmm. Sounds like a very selfish, self serving, and defensive god to me. Certainly not the God I know or the one I see revealed in scripture.

Self-centeredness is the foundation of God’s grace? :confused:

Quite right Melchie. Piper’s view of God is, in my opinion, a projection of his own ego. He seems to want to be ‘giving God the glory’ as Calvinists are wont to say, but in trying to do so he is actually undermining the true gospel and presenting a wholly false portrait of God.

George MacDonald had some very stern words for that brand of theology:

“How terribly, then, have the theologians misrepresented God in the measures of the low and showy, not the lofty and simple humanities! Nearly all of them represent him as a great King on a grand throne, thinking how grand he is, and making it the business of his being and the end of his universe to keep up his glory, wielding the bolts of a Jupiter against them that take his name in vain. They would not allow this, but follow out what they say, and it comes much to this. Brothers, have you found our king? There he is, kissing little children and saying they are like God. There he is at table with the head of a fisherman lying on his bosom, and somewhat heavy at heart that even he, the beloved disciple, cannot yet understand him well. The simplest peasant who loves his children and his sheep were–no, not a truer, for the other is false, but–a true type of our God beside that monstrosity of a monarch.”

Amen to that. John Piper please take note!

Hi fellas,

Interesting question. I am a bit confused. Some questions in my mind if anyone has any thoughts -

Is it not true to say that God does act to glorify himself?
Jesus prayed that both the Father and the Son would be glorified John 17:1-5. Is Jesus being self-centred?

Is seeking one’s own glory possibly a valid concept for God, but not for us?

Could God seeking his own glory also actually be in the best interest of his whole creation? For God, could self-centred be the same as love?

Is a parent wanting a child’s respect/honour similar in some respects to God wanting us to honour/glorify Him?

Thanks.

Mel, I updated your thread title (by updating your original post title), to alert topic title readers what’s being discussed here – you might pick up more readers and commenters this way. You can tweak that title some more yourself, of course, if you want. (I think any member can do that for their own posts, although I’m not entirely sure; but any member can ask an admin or mod to do so, and Mel has mod powers already. Which he knows, I’m just explaining for other members in case they might want to try that themselves sometime.)

Setting aside the question of whether God would be selfish to insist on His glorification, I really don’t mind JP appealing to that because (1) he is after all appealing to pretty clear scriptural testimony; and (2) it ends up radically undermining any non-universalistic soteriology. :exclamation:

To put it briefly, any God-glorification soteriology which doesn’t end up with all rebels coming to truly glorify God, is totally self-contradictory.

So Calv annihilationists (who appear to be growing in significant numbers in the past few years) who propose that God annihilates some rebels before they come to truly glorify God, or worse that God annihilates some persons who truly glorify God, propose that God acts finally against His own glorification as part of a soteriology or theology based on the importance of God’s insistence on being glorified.

Whereas Calv ECT proponents, like John Piper, propose instead that God not only accepts unrighteous and rebellious glorification of Himself by impenitent sinners, or else an ultimate and total refusal to glorify God, to be proper glorification of Himself, and indeed the only way He can be fully and most truly glorified; but also that this final result was God’s original intention all along. Which is not only principally self-contradictory, but runs up against a number of important scriptural testimonies to the effect that God does not accept sinful attempts at glorifying Him as real glorification.

Dr. Piper just isn’t thinking out the implications of what he is saying far enough. I absolutely love it when Calvs lean on God’s glorification while trying to defend a final result of God’s non-glorification. :laughing: As much as I love it when Arminianistic Christians (and even some Calvs, weirdly) lean on God’s respect for free will while trying to defend a final result of destruction of free will (either by the sinner or by God).

Now, beyond that I could write about how if trinitarian theism is true, God’s self-glorification isn’t actually selfish but rather grounds all self-sacrificial giving, such that even God comes not to be served but to serve, giving His own life for the raising up of the many. And this would end up at Christian universalism, too, but it would take a lot longer and be far more technically detailed (and also not of much use to non-trinitarian Christians, though it ought to be something fellow trinitarians like John Piper line up with – but don’t.) A possibly over-simple way to put it, though, would be that there is no way for a trinitarian God “to vindicate His righteousness” which in Biblical language as well as theological metaphysics must mean “to vindicate His fair-togetherness” (between persons), if any persons, whether creatures or the Persons of God, end up acting toward fulfilling non-fair-togetherness between persons – which any non-universalism necessarily involves.

Similarly, Dr. Piper can talk all day long, as far as I’m concerned, about “the massive rock of God’s unswerving commitment to promote the praise of His holy name”, and more power to him (and to Him)! But when he turns around and tries to tell us that God is also just as equally and unswervingly committed to promote the non-praise of His holy name, then John Piper has flung himself wildly off the rails into theological madness. The natural result of which will be that some people, thinking this is the best theology that can be offered, will refuse on principle to praise God’s holy name. Thanks John Piper!–I guess you’ve succeeded in your commitment to promote the non-praise of God’s holy name, just like you think God is committed! :stuck_out_tongue:

However, even on the most merely selfish notion of mere monotheism that could be imagined, even on a Satanic level of selfish monotheism, such a God would be acting directly and utterly against His own insistence on being glorified by acting to bring about a final non-glorification of Himself. Such a logic of ‘salvation’ doesn’t even rise to the level of coherent Satanism! :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

To which I could add that unless we’re orienting ourselves to acknowledge and respect and follow the ground of our existence as our highest authority, then at best we aren’t sinning yet, and more likely we’re in rebellion already somewhere. But we have at least a logical obligation to glorify God whenever we’re finally led to recognize the ground of our existence as our highest authority. That isn’t really optional, so I don’t mind when non-universalists try to bring it up.

I just mind when they bring it up in ways that are not only ultimately non-trinitarian (especially when they themselves are supposed to be trinitarian theists), but aren’t even competent monotheism, even on the hypothesis of Satanic monotheism. It wouldn’t even be competent mere polytheism in an ultimately atheistic reality!