The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A Short Case for EU

Nicked shamelessly from the RF website:

A Short Argument for Christian Universalism

  1. Arguments Against Hellism/Annihilationism
  2. Arguments for Christian Universalism
  3. Response to Common ECT Arguments

1) Arguments Against Hellism/Annihilationism

1A) Obvious Atrocity or Bleakness

In a nutshell: common repugnance/ bleakness at hell/oblivion is the morally valid response, akin to moral revulsion at the holocaust or child abuse. Only by searing the conscience with complex theological argument can one’s initial ethical response be considered a false reading.

1B) Inconsistency with a MGB

In a nutshell: hell and annihilation are inconsistent with an omnibenevolent being on any account that retains the most plausible understandings of the word ‘good’

1C) Inconsistency with Christ’s Character

In a nutshell: Christ’s actions seem inconsistent with a doctrine of ECT or unforgiving annihilation. It is only the words of Christ that lead one to accept hellism, yet His words can be variously interpreted. One should favour the interpretation that is most consistent with His actions.

1D) Unjust Justice

In a nutshell: ECT is built on a particular idea of retributive justice which deconstructs itself (it is incoherent) as hell never accomplishes a state of final justice. Additionally, both ECT and annihilationism seem to forward a massively disproportionate infinite punishment for the finite sins of a finite and flawed being. Furthermore, punishment on ECT/anni seems to serve no further justifiable purpose such as rehabilitation or deterrent, and thus it becomes purely vengeance. Also, no biblical restorative justice can be obtained under ECT or annihilationism.

1E) Incomplete Victory

In a nutshell: under ECT sin and suffering are granted permanent existence (contrary to scriptural assertion), under annihilation God-in-Christ fails to save some. In both cases God achieves a lesser victory over sin, evil, suffering, satan and death, which is inconsistent with biblical witness and MGB talk.

1F) A Low View of Free Will

In a nutshell: under ECT and annihilation God actualises a state of affairs where people either cannot repent, or their repentance is ignored - thus God effectively removes, or dishonours, freewill.

1G) The Infant Salvation Problem

In a nutshell: infant universalism is a modern and exegetically weak theology. The only way to present a strong case for infant salvation is under a full universalist paradigm (with its scriptural and theological support), otherwise infant only universalism falls foul of the emotional-argument accusation levelled at universalists. Infant only universalism leads to all kinds of moral and theological conundrums concerning abortion, creation, heaven, freewill, the gospel, original sin and the such like which are resolved more easily under full universalism.

1H) The Pragmatic Psychological Problem

In a nutshell: there are a number of documented cases and studies of ECTers committing suicide or infanticide, or developing depression, because of their theology. This problem doesn’t seem to exist under universalism. This points towards ECT as being ‘unhealthy’.

1I) The Apostolic Silence and the OT Silence

In a nutshell: there is a strange dearth of clear hell statements in the OT, the epistles, and Acts, which is unexpected given the severity of the issue. This is easily explained under universalism, not so easily explained under ECT or annihilationism.

1J) The Tears in Heaven Problem

In a nutshell: in heaven we will be perfected in love, becoming more like God. God loves everybody and commands us to love everybody, so in heaven we will love perfectly even those who are in hell or were annihilated. Loving (empathising with) someone perfectly yet knowing they are in torments or have lost all goods without hope of change will make people very sad. God can only resolve this problem in morally problematic ways: over-riding freewill and self-actualised character development by direct personality alteration (into something less human and less God-like), or by perpetrating the greatest cover-up/lie by hiding and removing knowledge from other beings (with many consistency problems).

1K) The Evangelism Problem

In a nutshell: many people have de-converted, or will not convert, because of the doctrine of hell.

1L) The Apologetics Problem

In a nutshell: when ‘hell’ is debated apologists lose the debate. Hell is apologetically indefensible.

1M) The Argument from Moral Authority

In a nutshell: a large number of recognised role-models of virtue were either universalist or ant-hellist.

2) Arguments for Christian Universalism

2A) Thomas Talbott’s Logical Argument

In a nutshell: there is an incompatibility between the biblically and theologically supported statements ‘God is able to fulfil His desires’ and ‘God desires all to be saved’ under both ECT and annihlationism but not under universalism.

2B) The Overarching Meta-Narrative Argument

In a nutshell: as argued by Robin Parry, the over-arching meta-narrative of the bible favours the view of a directionality towards complete cosmic reconciliation, whereas ECT and annihalitionism have to rely more on isolated proof texts.

2C) Pauline Universalism

In a nutshell: there are a number of clear Pauline proof passages for cosmic universal reconciliation.

2D) Other Biblical Prima Facie Universalist Texts

In a nutshell: there are a number of passages throughout the bible which prima facie support universalism.

2E) The Greater Victory Argument

In a nutshell: Robin Parry Puts it as,‘Let me ask you to hold in your mind traditional Christian visions of the future, in which many, perhaps the majority of humanity, are excluded from salvation forever. Alongside that hold the universalist vision, in which God achieves his loving purpose of redeeming the whole creation. Which vision has the strongest view of divine love? Which story has the most powerful narrative of God’s victory over evil? Which picture lifts the atoning efficacy of the cross of Christ to the greatest heights? Which perspective best emphasizes the triumph of grace over sin? Which view most inspires worship and love of God bringing him honor and glory? Which has the most satisfactory understanding of divine wrath? Which narrative inspires hope in the human spirit? To my mind the answer to all these questions is clear, and that is why I am a Christian universalist.’

2F) The Greater Coherence Argument

In a nutshell: universalism ties together MGB talk, justice, ethics, atonement theories, FWD, God’s desires, heavenly bliss, soteriology, etc in a better fashion than alternatives.

2G) Majority Mystical and NDE Reports

In a nutshell: the vast majority of NDEs describe blissful afterlives even for those normally rejected by ECT or annihilationism; a large number of mystics report God as all-encompassing love.

2H) Anecdotal Reports of Psychological and Spiritual Benefits

In a nutshell: lots of anecdotes of how universalism has brought peace and comfort to troubled people, and how the HS testifies to its truth.

3) Response to Common ECT Arguments

3A) The Use of ‘Eternal’ in Scripture

In a nutshell: the best and most recent scholarship show that the biblical word ‘eternal’/‘neverending’ is not a simple word corresponding to modern ideas of without end, and thus passages speaking of neverending punishment cannot be taken at their face-value English meaning.

3B) The Use of ‘Punishment’ in Scripture

In a nutshell: the biblical word 'punishment in hell contexts speaks more corrective discipline with a remedial purpose rather than ECT.

3C) Jesus’ Gehenna Warnings

In a nutshell: all of the Gehenna warnings in the Gospels can be harmonised with universalism, either by noting the context, or by word study, or by adopting preteristic hermeneutics.

3D) The Unforgivable Sin

In a nutshell: there are many interpretations of this passage and some are compatible with universalism. These compatible interpretations are held by non-universalists as well as universalists.

3E) Revelation and The Lake of Fire

In a nutshell: there are loads of interpretations of Revelation and one should interpret the less clear by the more clear not the other way around. Also, Revelation deconstructs its own hyperbolic judgement language in the last chapters leaving hope for those outside the city and the door open for universalism. Also, word studies can indicate that the lake of fire might have had a purgative purpose, again deconstructing the hyperbolic judgement language.

3F) Universalism as Pluralism

In a nutshell: there are clear differences between pluralistic universalism and Christian universalism. One can be an evangelical Christian particularist and a universalist.

3G) Universalism as Innovation

In a nutshell: contrary to some accusations, universalism has been held by Christians right throughout the millennia right back to the Early and Apostolic Church. Some pro-universalist church historians have argued for universalism being the majority view in the early church, but more modern and less partisan scholarship casts doubt on that. It is more likely that universalism was a widespread, but minority, early church viewpoint. Either way, it certainly isn’t innovative.

3H) Universalism as Heresy

In a nutshell: universalism isn’t technically a heresy (depending upon definition). It was an accepted part of the early church and some respected church fathers were universalists. Most people talk about Origen, but Origen was never declared heretical for his universalism, but rather for other teachings associated by his universalism. Other non-Origenist universalists were well respected during the period. Universalism can be harmonised with both the Apostle’s and Nicene creed (but not the Athanasian, but that is of very dubious provenance). Universalism (of various sorts) is tolerated or accepted in many denominations.

3I) Universalism as Incompatible with Free Will

In a nutshell: Calvinistic universalists side-step this issue; Molinist and Arminian universalists can side-step the issue if they adopt an ‘all can be saved’ hopeful universalism, or an ‘all will be saved’ prophetic universalism. The only real issue is with LFW Open Theist universalists and convinced ‘it is impossible for all not to be saved’ universalists. Even here, the free will issue has been dealt with in the philosophical works of Talbott and Reitan. The four key responses are: no fully rational being can choose to reject God forever, and a theology of freewill which presupposes such is biblically, ethically and philosophically flawed; no being can resist the beatific vision, in accordance with Thomisitic explanation; Reitan’s coin tossing analogy and argument, where infinite time means that there is an ever vanishing towards infinitely small chance of agent rejection; and the idea that although it is not logically impossible for a freewilled agent to resist God, it is psychologically impossible given our human limitations.

3J) Universalism as Incompatible with Justice

In a nutshell: arguments for the injustice of universalism fall foul of a variety of universalist responses, including: purgatorial universalism; proportionate judgement and punishment; the absurdity of the Anselmian infinite sin idea; and the argument for universalism being the only eschatology to fulfil both retributive and restorative justice.

3K) Universalism Renders Life Meaningless

*In a nutshell: a variety of possible universalist responses to this charge exist, including (and possible combinations of) an expanded vale of soul making theodicy; non-dispensationalist eschatologies which posit no destruction of the current universe; FWD cosmic warfare theodices; self-unfolding evolutionary theodices; and epistemic collapse or moral influence atonement theories. *

There’s loads of (often critical) discussion of Universalism on that board, and there’s a sort of meta-list of relevant threads here:

reasonablefaith.org/forums/choose-your-own-topic/recent-threads-collection-hell-6026742.0.html

Will have to go over this more closely soon, but I have to go for now. :frowning: I did want to bump it up so everyone would have a chance to see it though. :slight_smile:

Thanks for that.

Also did you mention that Universalism is the only view that allows a valid theodicy (justification of God) and resolution to the problem of evil.

It does? Please explain. The problem of evil has been discussed and debated for centuries. I have never yet encountered a complete solution, and know of no one who claims that he has discovered one. I am intensely interested in such a solution, if you can offer one, together with an explanation as to how Universalism solves the problem.

Do you think it is all right for God to “allow” the many atrocities which are being perpetrated continually throughout the world, such as rapes and killing of children, torture of people, etc. as long as all victims (as well as perpetrators) will be in a state of total joy at some point in the future?

WMB wrote:
Also did you mention that Universalism is the only view that allows a valid theodicy (justification of God) and resolution to the problem of evil.

I think Universalism offers a more satisfactory explanation of the final resolution of the problems caused by evil than either ECT or Anni, if that is what is meant. But I don’t think it offers much better explanations to the problem of the existence of evil in the first place (if that were meant).

I think universalism has a bearing on theodicy (certainly no theodicy could even hope to be complete without ultra universalism), but it can only be one plank in a much bigger structure.

For completeness sake, my theodicy looks like:

Universalism + FWD + cosmic warfare theodicy + vale of soul making + open theism + theistic evolution + kenotic self-limitation

It seems I must be the only one here in the dark. But would you mind telling me exactly what you mean by MGB? :blush:

Paidion,
Do you think it’s right to inflict the excruciating pain of relocating a shoulder socket that is out of place, as long as the victim will recover and enjoy the use of her arm at some point in the future?

If we isolate our view to the atrocities themselves, and fail to recognize their benefit, and if we deny their purpose, then all we can see is evil.

I would suggest that in the EU view, at least as I see it, there is no suffering that does not bring benefit. Indeed, this is illustrated in that Jesus was made better by that which He suffered.

Therefore it is not enough, in my mind, that

but that they will have been benefitted in a way that increases their capacity for the richest fulfillment possible to them, by the very things that they have experienced.

Please tell me what benefit is derived from the suffering caused to babies whose mothers placed them in boiling water.

Please tell me what benefit is derived from the torture and rape of little girls.

Please tell me what benefit is derived from “the hot stove murder” that occurred in my own area, in which a woman refused to give three men the money which they knew she had and so they tortured her on a hot cook stove (which resulted in her death). This happened many years ago, and I have never yet heard of any benefit which resulted from it.

Even if God “allowed” that the above atrocities to bring about some unknown benefit (which He never reveals), could He not have brought about those benefits without “allowing” these atrocities to take place?

I have a different explanation of God usually doing nothing to prevent atrocities. God wants all people of their own free will to yield themselves to His care and put themselves under His authority. For if they are forced to do so, God won’t have a world of willing servants—He will have a world of mindless robots.

Paidion, I agree with you, but I also agree with Jack. The benefit is what you’ve stated. Human beings will learn to reject the evil and choose the good, and the only way to teach us that is for us to experience these things – whether as the perpetrator or as the victim. The perps will (imo) have the opportunity to experience things from the victim’s point of view too, as part of their own healing. I’m not sure how that could even be avoided.

It’s hard to imagine that anything good could come of the things you’ve mentioned, but you did also, in the next breath, tell us what good thing does come from them, and cannot come in any other way. People having chosen the evil, learn not to choose that again. Eventually. Of their own free will, they will reject and abhor the evil thing that they have done. Once they’ve seen truly, they’ll NEVER be psychologically capable of doing THAT again. And of course, neither will the victim, if they were ever (or were ever capable of being) so inclined.

Why have you put ‘allowed’ in quotation marks? He either allows it or he doesn’t, in which case it doesn’t happen

Paidion,

My response to your questions to me, would have been lacking in comparison to the response Cindy shared, so I let her response stand in place of what I would have shared.

Cindy S. thanks for sharing.

jack:

sorry, just picking this up now: MGB = maximally great being - it’s a common abbreviation on the RF forums where this was picked up from. Its to do with Plantinga’s ontological argument, but basically shorthand for a philosophical conception of God as the most awesome being imaginable.

As regards theodicy see my post that looks like an equation.

It might help for people to see the use of the term maximally great being in context. Here it is, as used in the cosmological argument from William Craig’s site*Reasonable Faith *.

  1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists.

  2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world.

  3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.

  4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world.

  5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world.

  6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists.

  7. Therefore, God exists.

I put the word in quotation marks because people use the word “allowed” in two distinct senses.

A father may forbid his teenage son from getting drunk. But the son often gets drunk anyway. The father does nothing to prevent it. He believes the son must on his own learn the importance of reponsible drinking and the problems associated with drunkeness.

So does the father allow his son to get drunk? In the sense of “permit” he does not (and I think that is the proper use of “allow”). But in the sense of doing nothing to prevent him from doing so, he does. So in the first sense, God does not allow the atrocities which constantly occur throughout the world. For these atrocities are not His will. In the second sense He does “allow” them. For He usually does nothing to prevent them.

That’s right, Cindy. But that is not the benefit which most people mean. They say that God “allows” these things in order to achieve a deeper purpose, a purpose that is directly connected to the specific atrocity committed.

They say that unless God was carrying out a special plan through these atrocities, He would have prevented them from happening. They give their prime example of Jesus being crucified in great pain in order that redemption for the whole world be achieved. They also point out that Joseph’s being cast into the pit and sold as a slave into Egypt was meant for evil by his brothers, but was meant for good by God.

I see what you mean, Paidion. And I do think that God sometimes does have plans to use things like Joseph’s suffering to benefit the world. But as for most of the time, no. It’s just what people do. :frowning: I’m sure also that if Joseph’s brothers hadn’t sold him into slavery, God would have accomplished His will in some other way. It wasn’t as though He needed them to sin in order for Him to work things out for good.

I agree, Cindy.

I think God can bring good things OUT OF evil doings, but I don’t believe He “allows” the evil doings IN ORDER TO accomplish those good things.

C. S. Lewis held to that view as well. If every time a person chose to injure another, the injury was miraculously prevented (i. e., the fires went out, the bullet vanished into thin air, the knife turned into a feather, etc.), then that would be merely a roundabout way of NOT granting free will: “Yes, you can do as you choose, unless you choose to do wrong…” Or, in other words, “You can have whatever color of car you want, as long as it’s black.”