The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Aaron's Current Take on "Believers Debating Doctrine"?

I wouldn’t call what A37 is selling a broken down replica, Justin. He’s mistaken on some important parts (or so we believe), but he’s far more correct than mistaken (even if those mistakes are important).

He isn’t good at discerning about how he’s selling it; and that’s a logical result of the mistakes he’s making. He’s asking Jeff to take a final step without regard to all the other steps in Jeff’s way. Even though such a step can technically be done, it’s blindly insensitive to exhort someone to do so. But then, there’s no reason to try to cultivate that discernment if matters are so precariously hopeless as A believes to be true!–it really would be better, in that case, to at least try to ask Jeff to take that final step even if realistically Jeff is in no position at this time to remotely do so. Pleading for a person whose legs have been broken to leap up past a bunch of steps (falling down which might have broken their legs) is better than nothing, if that person really is at the bottom of a burning coal mine the sides of which could collapse at any moment. It might even be better than nothing if their legs were broken by other people at the top of the stairs, where that person used to be, jostling him off in their blind insensitivity!

Personally, I think it’s better to go down into the mine and carry such people out, or at least help them stagger up a step at a time, or heal their legs and lead them out. :slight_smile: But that’s admittedly more self-sacrificially dangerous. It’s a lot safer to stand at the top of the stairs and exhort them: I might get trapped down there, too, if I went down there!! (Hopelessly trapped! Oh no!!!)

Now, if a person is entirely capable of going up the stairs but chooses not to, that’s rather a different thing. Although, if I had ultimate love and ultimate power (not even counting a present existence everywhere!), not only would I have no excuse for leaving them there, I’m pretty sure I would be ultimately self-motivated to stay there (for ultimate love’s sake) as long as it takes, trying to lead them out, even if it takes forever. It isn’t like they could wear me out in that case, much less as though I would be threatened with overpowerment by the collapsing burning coal mine. (I might even try doing something about that, too, being omnicompetent and all. :slight_smile: )

I’m only a mere little derivative human being; so that kind of total commitment and ability for success isn’t something I myself can personally do.

But I know someone Who can! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

(And I’d better be cooperating with Him, too, in what He’s doing, even if as a weaker ox on the team compared to the Leader I’m hardly capable of doing anything.)

He’s the Someone St. Paul talks about in 1 Cor 13, Whose more excellent way we are encouraged (and expected, at risk of our own chastisement) to aspire to. An active self-sacrificial Love Who keeps on faithfully hoping beyond all transitory things which may fail–but Who never fails!

Jeff might not know Him–but based on the things Jeff writes, I’m pretty sure he does. More importantly, He knows Jeff.

I wish you knew Him as well as Jeff does, A. :slight_smile:

(But I know you will someday. :smiley: )

Btw, I wrote that before reading Jeff and A’s most recent prior exchange. :smiley:

I agree with most of your post and most of this paragraph, but I believe this paragraph describes Jeff. I believe Jeff is entirely capable of going up the stairs but chooses not to. ( I may be wrong, but I don’t think so). I believe playing paddy-cake with the Spirit of grace is a very dangerous and unwise thing to do. To be forgiven by God, we must comply with God’s conditions for forgiveness… Not our own. I pray Jeff accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior before time runs out on him.

Btw, I believe Jeff is a victim of a watered down gospel that is preached in word only and not in POWER (the original way it was designed.) That is our fault, not God’s.

Wow. I don’t even know if I can respond at this point. This has reached a point of ridiculousness.

I wish you believed this paragraph described God. (Since He’s Who this paragraph is mostly about.)

Actually, I’m very curious now about which majority of what I said, in my post and in that particular paragraph, you agree with. The only parts I can figure out your agreement with, in that paragraph, are the first sentence, and (maybe??) the notion that God of all persons or things in existence wouldn’t be threatened with overpowerment by the threat against the sinner. (And I’m not entirely sure you’d actually agree with that!)

What else in that paragraph do you agree with? That ultimate love and power (not even counting omnipresence) has no excuse for leaving sinners to a hopeless fate? (You seem to disagree with that everywhere else.) That ultimate love would be self-motivated to stay there as long as it takes trying to lead them out, even if it takes forever? (You seem to disagree with that everywhere else.) That God cannot be worn out into abandoning sinners? (You explicitly seem to disagree with that everywhere else, most recently in the discussion about the sin against the Holy Spirit.)

I appreciate the spirit of your thought; I’m just hugely confused as to the actual content of it. :confused:

Maybe it would be better to create a new thread for discussing that though… (I’m entirely serious about that.)

You’re certainly free to preach it in POWER for his sake and not in word only at any time. :slight_smile:

(Preaching things in word only around here, however, is likely to get a reminder that we’re here to discuss issues among ourselves, not primarily to preach at one another.)

Sorry. I was trying to agree with you on some important points, for what it’s worth. :slight_smile:

No, no. I agree with most of what you said and think it’s great. I was just talking about all the personal talk about Jeff. Not so much you, since you were merely responding and taking it to the level of a hypothetical; but Aaron just took it to the extreme after that, in my mind.

As for all that, though, I still maintain the what Aaron presents is not really the kind of eternal life I envision or that I see the scriptures envisioning, either. Basically I agree with George MacDonald that a mere endless continuation of life without The Life (paraphrasing here) is miserable indeed. Not that Aaron would claim he’s promoting otherwise necessarily, but what other conclusion am I being led to draw? I feel that there is no joy with the kind of God he presents: merely anal jurisdiction and legal vengeance with a pat on the back and reward for those prigs who happen to have the faith to merit his approval. Eternal life is not full, bursting-to-the-brim immeasurable springs of life that thus can never end; rather it seems to be mere continuation of some kind of mild reward of life ad infinitum. At the very least he can’t seem to conceive of eternity meaning anything different or like I just described.