The Evangelical Universalist Forum

About Gehenna

The reader of Farrar’s “Mercy and Judgment,” and “Eternal Hope,” and Windet’s “De Vita functorum statu,” will find any number of statements from the Talmudic and other Jewish authorities, affirming in the most explicit language that Gehenna was understood by the people to whom our Lord addressed the word as a place or condition of temporary duration. They employed such terms as these "The wicked shall be judged in Gehenna until the righteous say concerning them, ‘We have seen enough.’"5 “Gehenna is nothing but a day in which the impious will be burned.” “After the last judgment Gehenna exists no longer.” “There will hereafter be no Gehenna.”

hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html

This appears in the Talmud. Is it true that the people at the time of Jesus understood that Gehenna was a place of temporary punishment? I thought that the doctrines of the Pharisees were popular at the time and they taught eternal torment (except some exceptions like Hillel). Ordinary people in Jesus’ time understood Gehenna as a place of eternal punishment or temporary? This is important because Jesus speaks again and again about Gehenna assuming that people know that place, and I think he is not simply refirring to the garbage.

From what I’ve read, it was a mixed bag of beliefs, some who believed in almost a universalism, others in annihilation, and others in indefinitely long punishment. And mixed in with this was remedial punishment. Also, considering Jesus’ repeated and strong denunciation of the doctrine, attitudes, and practices of the Pharisees, I don’t think that Jesus in warning of Hinnom Valley, was endorsing that specific doctrine. Also, if you’ll notice, it was Matthew who primarily quoted Jesus’ warnings concerning Hinnom Valley, and one of Matthew’s passions was denouncing the Pharisees. I think it’s also significant that Matthew would have written his Gospel from near if not in Jerusalem just a few years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. Thus with the Historical context of Hinnom Valley warning of the destruction of Jerusalem, if we had to limit the Hinnom Valley metaphor to “one” meaning, I’d lead towards it warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. But I actually think that Jesus used that metaphor because of it’s non-specificity. It alludes to the destruction that comes from sin/idolatry in an individual’s life, in a family, in a nation, and potential unspecified punishment of sin in the afterlife. It’s a powerful metaphor meant to call the children of God to repentance, to warn the children of God of the devestation of sin. By saying it is for the “non-children of God” it nullifies it of it’s power to call anyone to repentance; believers say “no worries for me because I’m saved.” and unbelievers say “I don’t care what it says because I don’t believe it anyhow.”

Thanks for the answer, Sherman.

I would like to know if these phrases in the Talmud (“After the last judgment Gehenna exists no longer”) were popular at the time of Jesus.

The Talmud was written some time later and I do not know whether to believe that these sentences were spoken by the people of Jesus’ time.

Hi Sopho -

Sherman’s answer is very good, but I’m on the case regarding the question that you’ve asked in your latest post ( it requires an explanation of the formation of the Talmud from earlier sources etc as well as an analysis of what the Rabbis of Jesus days are reported to have said - as opposed to later Rabbis).

One thing I can say is that I don’t think the Rabbis of Jesus’ day taught ECT in terms of personal eschatology - but (and this dovetails into what Sherman has said above) they did teach that the enemies of the Jews were about to be destroyed physically in terms of national eschatology - and it is the latter view that Jesus criticised/prophesied against.

You mention Hillel - he was not just an individual; he was the leader of one of the two schools of the Pharisees and was relatively merciful in his opinions and rulings (and he had lots of followers); Shammai the leader of the other school, who also had lots of followers, was relatively severe in his opinions and rulings.

It’s good to think this one through properly – but don’t let your heart be troubled by it.

Happy Easter

Dick

My personal opinion:

The term Gehenna has not yet developed as the term designating infernal punishment at the time of Christ.

In the book of Enoch there is an allusion to an accursed valley, possibly Gehenna, yet the term itself is missing - large parts of the book of Enoch, the more heinous ones (the middle part), seem to be later interpolations. Gehenna is also not found in Philo and Josephus; neither in the intertestamental apocrpyha, such as the books of Maccabees, Tobit, Judith etc.

In the targumim Gehenna seems to be associated with literal destruction, be it everlasting or temporal, but I believe the targumim postdate the NT.

I think the first writing that has Gehenna in the sense of hell is 4th Esdras, but it is a dubious work.

The talmudic sources concerning Gehenna seem to be too elaborated and sophisticated compared with the heinous language of the earlier book of Enoch and 4th Esdras that I would say, they postdate the NT and the targumim by far.

Concerning the dead sea scrolls I was not able to find out if the term Gehenna was used, however the Essenes seem to have been rather held to annihilationism than to literally everlasting torment.

If Gehenna was yet introduced as a term denoting eschatalogical punishment at the time of Christ I think it was by the majority associated with literal destruction.

I came across this quote,

tentmaker.org/books/mercyand … t_ch8.html

Does anybody know which this “last times” are, that exceed the World to come? And if it was a common Jewish belief that the World to come is not yet the final state?

Very interesting to know, thanks sven. You guys are very cult.

Do you know if that last phrase was a common belief in Jesus time?

I was not able to find any further reference on the Rabbi’s quote.

I doubt that the later phrase was common at the time of Christ or ever was in Judaism in general. The reason I asked is, that some argue that the Jews believed only in two ages, the present age and an everlasting age to come, as the age to come is everlasting so is the punishment of this age they argue, which is flawed anyway in my opinion.

I’m wondering if the Jews at the time of Christ believed in a ressurection to everlasting life and immortality or merely to an extraordinary long and pleasant yet finite life.

In the apocryphal book of Enoch we read,

And then shall all the saints give thanks, and live until they have begotten a thousand children, while the whole period of their youth, and their sabbaths shall be completed in peace. In those days all the earth shall be cultivated in righteousness; it shall be wholly planted with trees, and filled with benediction; every tree of delight shall be planted in it.

Enoch 10:23

sven, thanks for sharing. From what I’ve studied, to me also it doesn’t seem that Gehenna was a widely used metaphor by the Pharisees of afterlife punishment during the time of Jesus. That seems to be a later development in Pharisaical Rabbinical thought.

Even more so, to me it seems that if ECT was a real threat that God would have inspired Moses to warn of it in the Torah at least once! But of course it’s not. And if Moses missed it, surely the prophets would have warned of such explicity at least once! But it’s not. And if Moses and the Prophets missed it, then surely Jesus would have specifically warned of such not using a metaphor or parable that could be missed, but explicitly warning of Tartarus though it was a Greek word/concept; but He didn’t not even once! And surely if ECT were a true threat, Paul, who wrote most of the NT would have at least warned of such once; but he didn’t! I have to believe that if ECT were true, the Jews would have at least had a word that specifically conjured such an image and it wouldn’t have been left for us to believe based upon the doctrine of the Pharisees whom Jesus denounced repeatedly even"IF" they believed such at the time of Christ.

Hi Sherman - I agree with all you say; it’s odd that people who want to argue for the truth of ECT sometimes make a big noise about the teachings of the Rabbis to buttress their arguments when Jesus is the one we look to as authoritative – and he had harsh things to say about the teachers of law in his day.

However, I think it’s always worth taking a look at evidence on its own terms (just becuase I’ve done the leg work :laughing: ) . I leave aside for the moment apocalypses like 2 Esdras and iv Ezra which address matters of national eschatology and I understand scholars now date as being written at the time of the Jewish Wars with Rome; rather I will look at what the Rabbis had to say about personal eschatology.

Before the fall of the Jerusalem Temple in AD 70 the traditions of rabbinical deliberation were passed on orally. But in response to the new situation after the fall of the Temple these traditions began to be written down lest they be forgotten in the form of midrash (scriptural interpretations) and halakot (legal rulings on the applicaiton of Torah). These writings were edited by Rabbi Yehudah haNasi circa 220 A.D. into the Mishnah). Then Rabbinic commentaries on the Mishnah over the next three centuries were edited as the Gemara, which, coupled with the Mishnah, comprise the Talmud. The consensus of scholars is that the Mishnah does indeed tell us much about the real views of Rabbis at the time of Christ but we always need to be aware that these have been edited. Bearing this in mind…

In the late nineteenth century – in England – there was much debate about the doctrine of ECT especially in the Anglican Church. Farrar’s sermon of 1877 that Sopho has mentioned gives the case against ECT (hesaw it at Helbusters and i have places it here on the Articles thread). Farrar cites the witness of Rabbinical literature as an appendix to his sermons, presumably because he knows that this has been used by those arguing the case for ECT. Farrar is scholarly in his use of quotations from the Mishnah/Talmud and he has asked the opinion of contemporary Jewish Rabbis on the Talmudic rulings – he’s done his homework like a good scholar. However, a criticism might be that he dwells on the merciful consensus that emerges from the later Rabbis in the Talmud and fails to give adequate attention to what the Talmud has to say about the opinions of first century Rabbis.

Alfred Edersheim was a Jewish convert to Anglicanism and a friend of Dr Pussey, the High Anglican who was the arch Victorian defender of ECT and antagonist of Dr Farrar. In an appendix to his The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah published 1883 – which I have seen cited on heel booster sites – he looks at the teachings of the Rabbis too – but concentrates on those part sof the Talmud that he thinks support the case for ECT.

He looks at the difference of opinion between Bet Shammai and Bet Hillel the two schools of thought among the Pharisees during the first century (and yes it would be good to look at these texts in a modern translation with parrallel Hebrew - but I’ve not been able to do this since there is currently no such facility online):

According to Shammai: "There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be written and sealed to Gehenna, as it says, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence” [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehenna and squeal and rise again, as it says, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them” [Zechariah 13:9]…
According to Hillel, the intermediate ones do not go there at all…and whereas transgressors (both Jewish and Gentile) are punished in Gehenna for only twelve months, only special categories of sinners such as adulterers are punished there to ‘the ages of ages. The pained prisoners of this place of torment suffer six days a week, but on the Sabbath are given rest.

Edersheim reads off confirmation of ECT from these texts. However…

First I note the in unwitting testimony of these passages is that there was no fixed and final teaching about the afterlife among the Pharisees of Jesus’ day. They were agreed that there was an afterlife - there would be a judgment. However, as for the details they were divided.

The different interpretations of the afterlife were based on particular exegesis of the texts of the Hebrew Bible (and whereas the Sadducees based their views entirely on the Torah, the Pharisees also saw the prophets and other writings as authoritative).

It is known that both Hillel and Shammai were members of the Jewish Council and they didn’t excommunicate each other and each others’ followers over their different views of the afterlife. The practice of Torah in this life was their primary concern – ideas of the world to come had a more notional status – they spoke in terms of inexact metaphors rather than definitive knowledge and normative teaching . And this fits with the whole development of Jewish eschatology – it was an open subject under review as part of a debate since no final and fixed teaching could be found – in their view – in the Hebrew Bible. And it is consistent with this tradition of debate that later Rabbis later were able to emphasize the merciful over the severe speculations

Neither Shammai or Hillel seem to envisaged the majority of mankind spending eternity in Gehenna – which has often been sadly traditional Christina teaching. Both Rabbis seem to have found it hard to belie that the truly wicked would ever repent – and hence both seem to have thought some might remain in Gehenna; but Hillel seems to have thought that even the truly wicked would be granted Sabbath rest.

It is by no means certain that they thought of Gehenna literally as a place of everlasting torment (indeed Hillel may have held to some idea of aeonian punishment it seems). Indeed to me it seems that the ealry Rabinic gehenna is purgatory - but there are doubts that some will ever emerge from purgatory.

Both thought the very good would go direct to paradise – Shammai was harsher in speculating that people of no exceptional goodness or wickedness would need purging in Gehenna, but Hillel thought this was not the case (so even Shammai had an idea of a purgatorial state to mitigate his doctrine.

Finally Hillel in placing adulterers automatically in Gehenna reflects Jewish focus on legitimate procreation and especial abhorrence of adultery as unforgiveable – but obviously his views are at variance with the teachings of Jesus.

Another text cited from the Talmud by Edersheim to support ECT is -

'Rabbi Jochanan ben Zakkai - ‘the light of Israel, the right hand pillar, the mighty hammer’ - lay a dying and wept, he accounted for his tears by fear as to his fate in judgment, illustrating the danger by the contrast of punishment by an earthly king ‘whose bonds are not eternal bonds nor his death eternal death,’ while as regarded God and His judgment: ‘if He is angry with me, His Wrath is an Eternal Wrath, if He binds me in fetters, His fetters are Eternal fetters, and if He kills me, His death is an Eternal Death.’

This first century Rabbi was chief of the Merkabah mystics – and had meditated long upon the awful majesty of God in the first chapter of Ezekiel. Eternal – as we well know – does not mean ‘everlasting.’ He was simply reflecting that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God whose majesty is far greater than that of earthly kings.

That’s all I have to say at the moment. I hope this is useful.

Dick

Hi Dick - I agree wholeheartedly and greatly value you sharing your research. It helps us to understand the culture in which Jesus ministered and spoke to and from. You mention the oral teachings of the Pharisees; it’s actually these that Jesus was referencing in the Sermon on the Mount when He’d say, “You’ve heard it ‘said’”. It was these teachings concerning statments in the Torah that Jesus denounced the Pharisees for. Their teachings effectively nullified the power of the word of God to call people to a life of real holiness. For example, the Pharisees had a whole system of oaths that effectively allowed a person to swear and oath with no intention of fulfilling that oath and “not” sin against God. It was this system of oaths that Jesus denounced.

Anyhow, thanks for sharing. I appreciate it.

Blessings,
Sherman

Aw thanks Sherman :smiley:

Interesting what Origen has to say about Gehenna:

Contra Celsus, Chapter 25/26


Moreover, Celsus says that the diagram was divided by a thick black line, and this line he asserted was called Gehenna, which is Tartarus. Now as we found that Gehenna was mentioned in the Gospel as a place of punishment, we searched to see whether it is mentioned anywhere in the ancient Scriptures, and especially because the Jews too use the word. And we ascertained that where the valley of the son of Ennom was named in Scripture in the Hebrew, instead of valley, with fundamentally the same meaning, it was termed both the valley of Ennom and also Geenna. And continuing our researches, we find that what was termed Geenna, or the valley of Ennom, was included in the lot of the tribe of Benjamin, in which Jerusalem also was situated. And seeking to ascertain what might be the inference from the heavenly Jerusalem belonging to the lot of Benjamin and the valley of Ennom, we find a certain confirmation of what is said regarding the place of punishment, intended for the purification of such souls as are to be purified by torments, agreeably to the saying: The Lord comes like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and of gold.

Chapter 26
It is in the precincts of Jerusalem, then, that punishments will be inflicted upon those who undergo the process of purification, who have received into the substance of their soul the elements of wickedness, which in a certain place is figuratively termed lead, and on that account iniquity is represented in Zechariah as sitting upon a talent of lead. But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made to all, nor to be uttered on the present occasion; for it is not unattended with danger to commit to writing the explanation of such subjects, seeing the multitude need no further instruction than that which relates to the punishment of sinners; while to ascend beyond this is not expedient, for the sake of those who are with difficulty restrained, even by fear of eternal punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin. The doctrine of Geenna, then, is unknown both to the diagram and to Celsus: for had it been otherwise, the framers of the former would not have boasted of their pictures of animals and diagrams, as if the truth were represented by these; nor would Celsus, in his treatise against the Christians, have introduced among the charges directed against them statements which they never uttered instead of what was spoken by some who perhaps are no longer in existence, but have altogether disappeared, or been reduced to a very few individuals, and these easily counted. And as it does not beseem those who profess the doctrines of Plato to offer a defence of Epicurus and his impious opinions, so neither is it for us to defend the diagram, or to refute the accusations brought against it by Celsus. We may therefore allow his charges on these points to pass as superfluous and useless, for we would censure more severely than Celsus any who should be carried away by such opinions.

Yes that is very interesting. Origen, in compiling his manuscript of the OT from multiple sources, obviously conversed with Rabbis; and this excerpt from ‘Against Celsus’ (a refutation of the arguments of Celsus the pagan against Christianity) implies that in the late second/early third century Origen knew that the Jews thought of Ge-ena primarily in purgatorial terms.

Hmmm - I’ve found complete translations of the relevant passages from the Talmud. I’ll take a good look at them and update my post above soon (some of the details about Hillel’s views cited above have become muddled together with other passages - so it’s good to have a reliable translation)

The diagram Origen refers to, seems to be an occult drawing, maybe a horoscope, or something of the like.

What is remarkable:

Celsus as far as I know accused the Christians to teach that God would toss all non-christians in an ever-burning fire at the end of days.

If I am not mistaken, Origen says that no Christian taught what Celsus accuses them (everlasting torment), but that some did so who are now no longer in existence (who were them?) - which would mean that, except a few, all contemporaries of Origen (at least those he knew) were either universalists or annihilationists.

Was Origen aware of the writings of the apostolic fathers preceding him, such als Clement of Alexandria?

(I found the full text of Against Celsus on Google books by putting this quotation into the Google search engine)

Origen says that Celsus – the pagan – has declared that while investigating the Christian 'mysterie’s he has uncovered a diagram of the innermost, secret teachings (it’s made up of ten circles). One of these circles represents a place of eternal torment like the pagan Tartarus which is full of bestial imagery.

Origen replies this is nonsense; that ‘orthodox’ Christians do not use any such diagram. What Celsus is talking about in a garbled way is the teachings of a minor heretical Christian sect called the Ophites. Origen says that the Ophite sect no longer exists (he’s not talking here about the beliefs of orthodox Christians who have since died).

Gnostic sects – condemned by the Orthodox Church and whom Origen fought hard against – amalgamated Christina teachings with pagan and Manichean ones. They often did make use of ‘magical’ diagrams. Also rather than teaching universal salvation they generally believed that there are three classes of human beings – the majority just doomed to destruction, the very few elected to spiritual salvation through knowledge of the mysteries, and a number who were in an intermediate state between the two groups.

Yes Origen knew the works of Clement very well.

All the best

Dick

Sorry, I wanted to link the text in the first place but forgot it:

earlychristianwritings.com/origen.html

So “what was spoken by some who perhaps are no longer in existence, but have altogether disappeared, or been reduced to a very few individuals, and these easily counted” does in no way refer to earlier church fathers, as for example Clement - but rather to some Mithraic, Gnostic or Manichean sects - this would make perfect sense.

Maybe I should have read the whole context :neutral_face:

This is what I found on wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophites

The diagram Jerome mentioned:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophite_Diagrams

gnosis.org/library/ophite.htm

It’s good to see the whole context of a quotation - something I’m often lax about; but that wasn’t a put down :blush: I just didn’t want you or anyone else to jump to anxious conclusions - because as we both know now, it’s not warranted in this case. But yay - those links about the Ophites diagram are very interesting!!! :slight_smile: Thanks for bringing this up and digging around (it’s so good to learn from each other)

All the best

Dick

I’ve put a revision of my post here about Hillel and Shammai on the Articles thread (the translation I was working on for this thread was garbled :blush: - see what I mean about checking sources :laughing: )

Is it reasonable to suppose that the doctrine of Gehenna was not developed before the destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD?

Josephus writes:

perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex … tion%3D512

These valleys would include Gehenna.

I think the earliest writing that contains Gehenna is 4 Esdras, a book which as far as I know is from the late first century, after the desctruction of Jerusalem.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras#A … _criticism

The book of Enoch only makes a vague allusion to Gehenna:

1 Enoch, chapter 27

The author might have this idea of an accursed valley from the Old Testament writings. Nothing explicit is said.

We possibly find the notion of “everlasting” punishment in Judith 16:17

The idea comes from Isaiah 66:24, but what Isaiah or Christ said, is not was the author here understands thereby. It also nowhere said, that this punishment is inflicted in Gehenna, I would rather understand it as a punishment upon the living that attack the Israelites, “forever” might even apply for their remaining lifetime.

The Greek phrase is eôs aiônos instead the common phrase eis ton aiôna (into the eon), eôs means until: perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex … De%28%2Fws

I would render the phrase until the farthest time.