No, Holy Fool, instead I make these 2 points:
(1) The nonsense expressed in your last post further demonstrates that you have not watched the videos. The doctors is the videos identify their sources, have written well-documented books on the evidence, and make themselves available for cross-examination.
(2) The Gospel resurrection narratives are presumably based on anecdotal testimony which has dubious connections with eyewitness sources and is riddled with apparent contradictions.
So again, I challenge you: do you have the intellectual integrity to engage the hard work of research and critical thinking to assess your biased and ill-grounded perspective?
I bet anything in play money, that if I watched these videosâŚand did a search for professional criticism of themâŚI could find it, from distinguished doctors, scientists, etc. Itâs the nature of academia and how profession academia works. But suppose I were to watch them. What would happen? That I would become convinced of supernatural stuff? Well, I have experienced that. Both in a Christian setting. And other religious settings (i.e. Native Americans), So thereâs no need to convince me. But I am a professional researcher - now retired. And I have worked in both academic and non-academic settings. So I can find professional criticism, of anything you present - if I wanted to.
So, letâs just say Iâm a believer in BOTH science and the supernatural. And you can âsellâ your video presentations, to our forum audience.
i would watch them but you see when i click on the link all i get is the bing video search homepage soâŚ
But regardless if you base your claims on ndes, and there are many ndes that all contradict each other, are you just cherry picking the nde you claim is true?
Ive watched many ndes. I can find an nde for any religions or ideology i want to. So which one is right.
So, letâs do something simple - shall we? Let the poster post ONE YouTube video or link, they think is noteworthy. Then
See how many hits it has. Unless it gets a few thousand, then itâs not worthy of our time. As itâs not worthy of the Google world, Internet audience - in general.
Suppose it has a few thousand hits. And I find professional criticism of the video, done in a academic manner. Would the forum poster here, be willing to respond to the professional criticismâŚin a professional, academic manner?
Berserk,
I think claiming Acts 9.7 & 22.9 are contradictions is a stretch in that in Acts 9 they heard âa voiceâ which could have been Saulâs voice or any voice whereas in Acts 22 Luke was specifically referring to Jesus voice and what he was saying to Saul. It also may mean they didnât make out the words spoken to Paul by Jesus therefore they didnât understand the words spoken.
Holy Fool reminds me of Fundamentalists who rail against evolutionary theory, but constantly find excuses to avoid defenses of evolution by articulate and well respected biologists like Kenneth Miller (as opposed to fundamanetlist apologists). Can you say âintegrity?â
For a summary of Dr. Ray Moodyâs book on Shared Death Experiences, see:
Im curious, as im not gathering a whole lot of your philosophy, genuinely I do want to hear your point of view. Cause I do,even when i disagree, enjoy hearing other peoples opinions.
That being said, what do you think happens when we die?
Actually, just the opposite. I see no conflict between theology and science. I follow the scientific trail, wherever it may lead. But I also am familiar with the scientific method. Since I have a bachelorâs degree in math from Aurora University, a masters in psychology from Norwich University and was a statistical methodology black-belt at Motorola.
Iâm familiar with academic presentations, as well as academic criticism. NDE and ADC experiences, can be viewed many ways. They can have spiritual explanationsâŚas well as explanations from brain chemistry, neurology and other scientific disciplines. You canât just pick and choose, the scientific experts you like. And ignore the criticism, of the scientific experts you donât like. In fact, I did a lot of research on PhD dissertations - by PhD nurses⌠on the subject of therapeutic touch. Where I actually spent time, with the original co-founder.
Acutally, the ONLY way to know for sureâŚis to experience it for yourself. I might send some folks to Heartfulness - to learn meditation. Or to the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends,
Sukyo Mahikari and Johrei - to experience healing and purification. All at no charge to them. I tell them to go experience it for themselves. Do whatever you are currently doing, in theology, science and medicine. Donât change that. Just add these experiences to the mix.
If you want to read something good on NDEâs for laymen, then check out Scientific American:
Holy Fool,
So give me a scientific explanation for perfectly healthy witnesses having OBEs in which they share their loved oneâs experience of the Being of Light, the encounters with deceased relatives and friends, and even their loved oneâs past life review? And what is your scientific explanation for th ability of the deceased to come back, drive their loved one around in a truck or car, and providing paranormal information unknown to their earthbound loved one?
Same thing goes for UFOs spotted. A few decades back, my father owned a plastic shop. And there was a ministerâs son, who worked during the summer. And he saw some flying saucers. And he even showed me, a picture he took. Well:
It could be lights from various scientific phenomena, thatâs happening at the same time.
It could be men and women from Mars, or some galaxy - far, far away.
It could be demonic activity - trying to fool us (which is another possible explanation, for your NDE and ADC stuff).
He could have a brain disorder⌠an organic disease,âŚhis glasses were foggy⌠he was suffering from side effects of prescription medication⌠or maybe smoking some weed or drinking some alcohol.
The possibilities are endless.
Letâs briefly look, at the possibility of demon activity:
Now I hung around for many years, with the Two Feathers Medicine Clan. Which is Native American spirituality. And they use things, like Peyote and Ayahuasca - as sacraments and medicine. Within the context, of an all night ceremony. And my typical CIA answer, is I can neither confirm nor deny⌠that I have ever joined them, in these ceremonies.
However, they might see things you talk about. Is this:
The side effects of a hallucinogen?
Or is it opening up the door, to see reality as it really is?
You decide!
Just a footnote here. They say you canât exit the sweat lodge, until the ceremony is complete (in the above video). This is NOT a universal way. In Lakota, Ute and *Ojibwa tribal ceremonies I attendedâŚYou can ask to leave any time and itâs granted.
Just another footnote here. Diame is another name for Ayahuasca.
(11) NDEs Supporting Claims that the Dead Monitor the Living:
I had just performed a wedding at my church in Buffalo, NY, and was now attending the reception at a country club. I happened to sit next to Phyllis, a rather aloof but attractive blonde doctor and medical researcher. She shared her 2 highly instructive NDEs with me. She had never believed in NDEs prior to her own experience. The first was triggered by a car accident. She found herself floating up to âa mall that really wasnât a mall. It was a mall composed of white light.â
There she came upon a court area with several tables and a hidden orchestra playing beautiful music. Seated at one of the tables was her deceased mother. When Phyllis joined her, the Mom chided her, âYou really need to grieve over my passing. Your inability to do so in hampering my progress over here!â This guilt trip made Phyllis very uncomfortable. She had always dealt with tragedy and disappointment by detaching from her emotions. Finally, she excused herself,âWell, I guess Iâll try to get back into my body now.â
A couple of years later, Phyllis was taken to the hospital for a serious operation.
She didnât explicitly identify her illness, but she gave me the impression it was a womanâs ailment like cervical cancer. Her illness triggered another NDE. She again found herself in the âmall of white lightâ at her motherâs table in the court area. Her mother again lit into her," I told you your failure to grieve my passing is preventing my progress over here! Why havenât you done what I asked?"
The soothing orchestra music in the background actually grated on Phyllisâs nerves. She hadnât expected this second confrontation. Upset, she again suggested that she should leave. But her mother retorted, âNo, youâre not ready to leave! You need to go with these 2 gentlemen.â Two tall men in white robes appeared and led her to âan elevator that wasnât really an elevator. It was an elevator of white light.â They ascended to what seemed like a spirit hospital. Some sort of âmedicalâ procedure was performed on Dr. Phyllis, which she didnât understand. Then she was returned to her hospital bed in this world. The âmedicalâ procedure had cured her and she was released from the hospital!
I never saw Phyllis again. Obviously, I was only dimly aware of the psychological baggage between her and her Mom. I have since often wondered if Phyllis was ever able to get in touch with her emotions and grieve her loss. Two intriguing inferences might be drawn from her
Im still not understanding this pick and choosing of these phenomenon. At best it seems like research bias. Where you pick which ones will fit your personal convictions and uphold them as truth and ignore the ones that discredit or contradict it.
And as such, and how varying they all are, I dont put any credit to them.
Yes, you hit on key wordsâŚâResearch biasâ. Folks like to present their key theoriesâŚbut ignore professional criticism, of such presentationsâŚor research that presents the opposite, of the original presentation. Itâs NOT science - itâs âsellingâ. Same goes for âvisionaries extraordinarilyâ. Can such visions CONTRADICT, Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition? Are such visions to be interpreted literally, figuratively - or otherwise? And is there a scientific or medical explanation? And why isnât the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church or Native American tribesâŚhonoring and praising this âvisionary extraordinaireâ. Or why donât I see this research emphasized in scientific academic journals, or even lay scientific journals - like Scientific American?
As already noted, the evidence for postmortem survival from ADCs and NDEs is far, far superior to the New Testament evidence for Jesusâ resurrection. Yet it is sadly amusing how denizens of this site resort to any distracting comments to avoid the hard work of critical engagement with the specifics of the actual evidence provided here. This anti-intellectual evasion can aptly be described as akin to Bambi freezing the headlights of paranormal evidence, for which they have no answer, But many readers here see through this evasion, and so, for them I will provide other unique cases that reveal just how compelling and diverse this evidence can be. After a few more such cases, I will take on my critics directly.
(13) THE GEOGRAPHY OF PARADISE:
At age 5 Margaret Sauro was misdiagnosed with scarlet fever and was on the verge of death as a result of a ruptured appendix. She suddenly found herself walking hand in hand down a path with a beautiful young woman in a Roman toga. The path was lined with massive beautiful flowers âway over our headsâŚclose together the way a colonial bouquet would be.â Margaret felt an overwhelming peace and the floral fragrance âseemed to permeate my whole body.â Near the pathâs end, she heard faint voices, saying, âBut why is she bringing her here?â âI donât know. She knows better.â Margaret was then enveloped in fog and returned to her hospital bed. The angelic young woman looked down, saying, âIâm sorry Margaret, but you have to go back now. Itâs not you time.â
Decades later in her 50s, Margaret decided to paint the beautiful lady and the flowers along the path. The next day she went to see her internist about her broken rib. She told her internist about the painting and he asked if she could create a reproduction for him to frame and hang among 10 other pictures in his office. Several weeks later Maria Olivia, another patient, saw the painting among the 10 others and stood transfixed. When the internist asked her what was going on, she replied: âI walked along that path when I was 5 years old and almost died!â 2 independent descriptions of a section of Paradise devoted to 5-year-olds? If so, this is a mind-blowing confirmation of Paradise geography. (report condensed from Mally Cox-Chapman, âThe Case for Heavenâ)
If you spend time, doing work of spiritual developmentâŚas found in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churchesâŚor ceremonial contexts, of the Native AmericansâŚor disciplines in the yoga and Sufi transitionsâŚYou can see the truth for yourself (after a while).
You wonât need to inject value judgments (âfar, far superiorâ)âŚor believe one can present âevidenceâ, without there being professional criticism, counter experiments, etc. If the evidence presented, is so 'cut and dry"âŚwell, professional scientists and theologians by the masses, would be embracing it.
Well, Jesus has appeared to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saintsâŚto Native AmericansâŚto Muslims, where they converted to ChristianityâŚand lay people, in the Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox worlds.
The problem is you are trying to âsell this evidenceââŚin the same manner, some folks here - are trying to sell what I call ânon-traditionalâ, theological positions.
Iâm sure even FrankensteinâŚafter drinking some good wine and smoking some âinterestingâ stuffâŚcould also see these ADCâs and NDEâsâŚBut probably NOT in the same way, as those working on spiritual development.
And I can present videos also, proving supernatural eventsâŚthat are âfar, far superiorââŚâself-evidentââŚâcanât be explained awayââŚetc.
And hereâs a guy presenting some video stuff, that he says - canât be explained away.
And hereâs another one, folks.
These are my favorites, folks. Hey! Iâm actually helping this thread starter, with these videos.
Iâve watched many ndes that alll contradict each other. Some within their own testimony. And some which contradict what you put forth. But im sure you have cherry picked which ones you believe and discard those which contradict it.
Donât call me ignorant while you ignore the vast and contradictory ndes and after death experiences against that which you put forth. And ive yet to see you explain this process of elimination of which are true and which are invalid. They cant all be true.
Which ndes and after death testimonies do we go by? The Hindus who see a glimpse their next life? The southern Baptist who supposedly saw hell? The atheist who saw nothing at all? The tollhousers? The Muslim walking over the bridge across the gap of fire? seems convoluted to take something as evidence when the evidence itself isnt even concordant with itself.
If someone received a REAL Harvard PhD, then they wouldnât say things about research like âvastly superiorâ, or âfar, far superiorâ, etc. They would be trained to present stuff, in an academic writing style. And present studies from scholarly journals - on the topics - that has footnotes and professional rebuttals. Unless their degree is in something like theologyâŚand they have no clue, regarding the scientific method. Then they should at least be knowledgeable, about which visionaries are considered to be - mainline or orthodox Christians. And which are NOT (i.e. Emmanuel Swendenborg). Where the Got Questions site, is correct - in their criticism of E. S.
Im probably definitely within that camp. Im probably one of those who are far out of orthodoxy probably. But i always love your posts and you havenât made me feel unwelcome!
Also Iâd like to point out that, from what ive read,dmt naturally releases in the brain during the process of dying. And dmt causes vivid hallucinations. So that very well could be a reasonable explaination for visions. As well as post death experiences. Since the brain is usually active a couple minutes after the body dies which is when time of death is usually announced. So they arenât fully dead and the brain is still processing. And few minutes might not sound like a lot but it could be in the same sense like dream time. Where you take a thirty minute nap but feel like your dream was the length of the whole harry potter saga. Same could be said for nde or after death visions.
This,imo, is the most plausible scientific explaination for this phenomenon. This would also explain why they are so personalized. Especially for a person who is religiously zealous. Since the brain is using already percieved information in a visual manifestation.
Remember my scientific theory. That we live in a world, of multiple dimensions and parallel universes. And everyone on this forumâŚis theologically and philosophical correct, in some parallel universe or alternative dimension.
