The Evangelical Universalist Forum

ADCs and NDEs: Their Evidential Value for Apologetics


#81

As already noted, the evidence for postmortem survival from ADCs and NDEs is far, far superior to the New Testament evidence for Jesus’ resurrection. Yet it is sadly amusing how denizens of this site resort to any distracting comments to avoid the hard work of critical engagement with the specifics of the actual evidence provided here. This anti-intellectual evasion can aptly be described as akin to Bambi freezing the headlights of paranormal evidence, for which they have no answer, But many readers here see through this evasion, and so, for them I will provide other unique cases that reveal just how compelling and diverse this evidence can be. After a few more such cases, I will take on my critics directly.

(13) THE GEOGRAPHY OF PARADISE:

At age 5 Margaret Sauro was misdiagnosed with scarlet fever and was on the verge of death as a result of a ruptured appendix. She suddenly found herself walking hand in hand down a path with a beautiful young woman in a Roman toga. The path was lined with massive beautiful flowers “way over our heads…close together the way a colonial bouquet would be.” Margaret felt an overwhelming peace and the floral fragrance “seemed to permeate my whole body.” Near the path’s end, she heard faint voices, saying, “But why is she bringing her here?” “I don’t know. She knows better.” Margaret was then enveloped in fog and returned to her hospital bed. The angelic young woman looked down, saying, “I’m sorry Margaret, but you have to go back now. It’s not you time.”

Decades later in her 50s, Margaret decided to paint the beautiful lady and the flowers along the path. The next day she went to see her internist about her broken rib. She told her internist about the painting and he asked if she could create a reproduction for him to frame and hang among 10 other pictures in his office. Several weeks later Maria Olivia, another patient, saw the painting among the 10 others and stood transfixed. When the internist asked her what was going on, she replied: “I walked along that path when I was 5 years old and almost died!” 2 independent descriptions of a section of Paradise devoted to 5-year-olds? If so, this is a mind-blowing confirmation of Paradise geography. (report condensed from Mally Cox-Chapman, “The Case for Heaven”)


#82

If you spend time, doing work of spiritual development…as found in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches…or ceremonial contexts, of the Native Americans…or disciplines in the yoga and Sufi transitions…You can see the truth for yourself (after a while).

You won’t need to inject value judgments (“far, far superior”)…or believe one can present “evidence”, without there being professional criticism, counter experiments, etc. If the evidence presented, is so 'cut and dry"…well, professional scientists and theologians by the masses, would be embracing it.

Well, Jesus has appeared to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints…to Native Americans…to Muslims, where they converted to Christianity…and lay people, in the Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox worlds.

The problem is you are trying to “sell this evidence”…in the same manner, some folks here - are trying to sell what I call “non-traditional”, theological positions.

I’m sure even Frankenstein…after drinking some good wine and smoking some “interesting” stuff…could also see these ADC’s and NDE’s…But probably NOT in the same way, as those working on spiritual development. :wink:

And I can present videos also, proving supernatural events…that are “far, far superior”…“self-evident”…“can’t be explained away”…etc.

And here’s a guy presenting some video stuff, that he says - can’t be explained away.

And here’s another one, folks.

These are my favorites, folks. Hey! I’m actually helping this thread starter, with these videos. :smile:


#83

I’ve watched many ndes that alll contradict each other. Some within their own testimony. And some which contradict what you put forth. But im sure you have cherry picked which ones you believe and discard those which contradict it.

Don’t call me ignorant while you ignore the vast and contradictory ndes and after death experiences against that which you put forth. And ive yet to see you explain this process of elimination of which are true and which are invalid. They cant all be true.

Which ndes and after death testimonies do we go by? The Hindus who see a glimpse their next life? The southern Baptist who supposedly saw hell? The atheist who saw nothing at all? The tollhousers? The Muslim walking over the bridge across the gap of fire? seems convoluted to take something as evidence when the evidence itself isnt even concordant with itself.


#84

If someone received a REAL Harvard PhD, then they wouldn’t say things about research like “vastly superior”, or “far, far superior”, etc. They would be trained to present stuff, in an academic writing style. And present studies from scholarly journals - on the topics - that has footnotes and professional rebuttals. Unless their degree is in something like theology…and they have no clue, regarding the scientific method. Then they should at least be knowledgeable, about which visionaries are considered to be - mainline or orthodox Christians. And which are NOT (i.e. Emmanuel Swendenborg). Where the Got Questions site, is correct - in their criticism of E. S.

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#85

Im probably definitely within that camp. Im probably one of those who are far out of orthodoxy probably. But i always love your posts and you haven’t made me feel unwelcome!


#86

Also I’d like to point out that, from what ive read,dmt naturally releases in the brain during the process of dying. And dmt causes vivid hallucinations. So that very well could be a reasonable explaination for visions. As well as post death experiences. Since the brain is usually active a couple minutes after the body dies which is when time of death is usually announced. So they aren’t fully dead and the brain is still processing. And few minutes might not sound like a lot but it could be in the same sense like dream time. Where you take a thirty minute nap but feel like your dream was the length of the whole harry potter saga. Same could be said for nde or after death visions.

This,imo, is the most plausible scientific explaination for this phenomenon. This would also explain why they are so personalized. Especially for a person who is religiously zealous. Since the brain is using already percieved information in a visual manifestation.


#87

Remember my scientific theory. That we live in a world, of multiple dimensions and parallel universes. And everyone on this forum…is theologically and philosophical correct, in some parallel universe or alternative dimension.


#88

Lol I don’t personally believe that. But hey maybe I’m wrong and this is right in our universe :stuck_out_tongue:

What do you think of my d mt theory to explain nde and “after” death experiences i posted above? Figured you might get a kick outta the idea.


#89

Interesting. I think some visions, do have scientific reasons. Perhaps brain chemistry, psychosis, organic disease, etc. But some visions are real. And there is something in Native American spirituality, called the vision quest. But the sponsor and/or medicine man or woman…has a pretty good idea, what the visionary experienced…even if they didn’t tell them. And I believe that certain mystics…in the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestant worlds - have valid visions.

Having said that. If you are trying to present things as scientific proof…that you need to follow, the rules of science. Which are professional journals, scientific experiments, etc.

Huffington Post: What is a Vision Quest and Why Do One?


#90

I mainly proposed it as a possible explaination off of the few scientific details of the brain during death that I’m aware of. Ill take your line here and say I can’t confirm or deny I know anything about visions personally. But I do think there is some understanding that can be gained by ones own visions. But that ndes and “after deaths” are to vague and often contradictory to uphold as universal truth of what the after life is. Also if it blatantly denies scripture I think it’s more likely a mere hallucination than a revelation.


#91

This is true. But for Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, it’s both Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And for Native Americans, it’s in accordance with the Great Spirit or Great Mystery (other names for God, in their worlds)…as well as their oral traditions…Or if any vision contradicts these things, then don’t give it too much credence. I might be off shortly, so I might continue our dialogue later.


#92

(14) My next NDE is so unique that it is surely one of the most faith-inspiring. It seems to involve divine control of a tractor. Pastor Dave replaced me after I retired. He shares the testimony of a farmer who lived in the Colfax, WA region. The farmer was ploughing one of his fields, when he reached for something, lost his balance, and fell off the tractor. The huge tractor wheel ran across his chest, crushing ribs, and leaving him seriously injured. But he then had an NDE, during which he was told that his time was not up and he still had a purpose to fulfill on earth.

But he could barely move and his tractor had continued on without a driver and had vanishes over the slope of his field. His situation seemed hopeless, but just then, he saw his driverless tractor returning over the slope where it had vanished. The tractor came towards him. Would it pass him by or crush his body? No, it motored to his left, and then stopped, idling right beside him! With great difficulty, he was able to climb aboard and get to his house, from which his family was able to get him the medical help he needed to survive.

.


#93

This thread does raise a very serious…theological and philosophical question for me…Can a zombie created by Haitian voodoo…have an NDE or ADC?

But I do believe, then can have a genuine love experience. See video:


#94

Here are 2 astounding NDE testimonies of NDE verifications experienced by 2 very bright and articulate women:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+near-death+experiences&view=detail&mid=F2289C8C40130C72419FF2289C8C40130C72419F&FORM=VIRE


#95

I was curious to see, what the non-denominational site - Got Questions - had to say:

Let me quote from their answer - for reflection:

Answer: A near-death experience (NDE) is when a person is at the brink of death and, upon recovery, reports an unusual occurrence, generally an out-of-body experience or some sort of vision of heaven or hell. There is no specific scriptural support for near-death experiences. Many people use 2 Corinthians 12:2-5 as a biblical proof text of near-death experiences. However, this is taking great liberty with interpretation and makes the assumption that the man (presumed to be Paul) was either near death or actually dead when he found himself in heaven. The passage nowhere states that the man had died or come close to death. It was a vision that God gave the man of heaven, not a near-death experience.

That being said, it is not impossible for God to give someone near death, or anyone for that matter, a vision of heaven. However, with the completion of the biblical canon, visions are not a normative experience for Christians.

We need to be extremely careful in how we validate our experiences. The most important test of any experience is comparing it with the Bible. Satan is always ready to cause deception and twist people’s thinking. “But I am not surprised! Even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So, it is no wonder his servants can also do it by pretending to be godly ministers. In the end, they will get every bit of punishment their wicked deeds deserve” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).

Because the Bible is silent regarding near-death experiences, and scientific research has not been able to be performed reliably, we simply cannot accept the legitimacy of near-death experiences on their face value. It would be too strong to state that all near-death experiences are faked, imagined, or Satanic, but there are still serious concerns, biblically, about the validity of near-death experiences. Again, any description of a near-death experience should be validated against the truth of Scripture. If such an experience comes from God, it will line up with what He has already revealed in His Word and ultimately bring Him glory in the name of Jesus Christ.


#96

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie: “However, with the completion of the biblical canon, visions are not a normative experience for Christians.”

On the contrary, NDEs are visionary experiences and Peter teaches that visionary experiences are characteristic of “the last days,” and not just of the apostolic era:
“IN THE LAST DAYS, it will be, God declares, I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh…Your young men shall see visions (Acts 2:18-18; citing Joel 2: 28).”

Second, this thread is about ADCs, not just NDEs, and you ignore this distinction. In fact, you pontificate from ignorance without having the integrity to watch the videos and read the very accounts you dismiss.

Third, your GotQuestions poster is poorly informed about the awesome evidences that so often confirms the validity of NDEs and ADCs and is unaware of the special category of shared death experiences that provide some of the best evidence for NDEs. Indeed, Jesus’ resurrection is a good example of shared death experiences, but the evidence for NDEs and ADCs is far superior to that for Jesus’ resurrection.

Fourth, you duck the biblical and ancient Jewish evidence that the OP cites in support of a belief in ADCs.


#97

Actually, I have studied ADB and NDE accounts. I just don’t try to “sell” them, as proof of anything. They do have their purpose. And more scientific research is needed, in this area. In fact, being a lifetime member…of the Theosophical Society in America (mainly for their library resources)…I have seen professional presenters, on this very topic…with outstanding credentials to boot. So in some cases, I believe they are very real. In other cases, I think there are valid scientific explanations for them. I also think you should look into the Tibetan Light ( 1, 2) traditions.

I really, REALLY do hope…you are not hanging out, with that wise chap named Socrates…and his friend Frankenstein…when they are drinking wine, smoking some “interesting” stuff and Socrates playing the violin…It would explain words like “but the evidence for NDEs and ADCs is far superior to that for Jesus’ resurrection.”…And “out the awesome evidences that so often confirms the validity of NDEs and ADCs and is unaware of the special category of shared death experiences that provide some of the best evidence for NDEs.”

“You ought to forgive others. Sometimes, the dark deed of others is due to inner struggles and fears. With your shining light and kind deeds, you will help them to turn to the light.”-- Lailah Gifty Akita


#98

This author claims to have left his body & gone to hell, experienced its sufferings, & learned from Jesus that they are endless:

He was interviewed on converted to Christ Jew Sid Roth’s show “It’s Supernatural”:

Roth ends the show (@ 25 minutes in +) agreeing there is ECT, yet adding even if there wasn’t hell, who would want to miss knowing the love of God in this life.

One critique of the author’s book remarked:

“…not all Catholics believe this garbage. In fact, many don’t…there are countless articles published tarnishing Wiese’s credibility and exposing the inconsistencies of his book”

https://web.archive.org/web/20101123161649/http://www.northern-iowan.org/23-minutes-of-nonsense-1.2411247


#99

Here’s the Wiki article:

Here’s the Belief Net recap:

And here’s my FAVORITE version of hell. Please note that I have shared the same central vision…by 3 DIFFERENT and UNRELATED persons:


#100

Once again, Holy Fool and others demonstrate their irrational need to preemptively explain away compelling NDE and ADC afterlife evidence without being willing to engage the hard work of critical engagement with the new cases I provide that \decisely refute all the standard lazy dodges that keep their biases out of date, out of new ideas, and out to lunch. Here now is the the most famous evidential NDE case with empirical verification by a medical professional: