The Evangelical Universalist Forum

ADCs and NDEs: Their Evidential Value for Apologetics


#101

Evidence of what? That there is an afterlife? This “evidence” is supposed to convince atheists that there is an afterlife? If it’s such “hard work” for atheists to weigh this “evidence” & few of them are even capable of doing so, where in it is “Their Evidential Value for Apologetics”? Even if convinced, unlesss the Holy Spirit convicts them, what does it avail (how would they know which afterlife of which of the many religions is the true one):

John 16: 8 And having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment: 9 concerning sin indeed, because they do not believe in Me;

1 Cor.1: 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not in wisdom of discourse, so that the cross of the Christ should not be emptied of its power.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those indeed perishing, but to us being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it has been written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

and the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”b

20 Where is the wise man ? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those believing.

22 Forasmuch as both Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 we, however, preach Christ having been crucified, a stumbling block indeed to the Jewish and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but those called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God stronger than men.


#102

These are “pick and choose” cases. Please note that I have shared the same central vision …by 3 DIFFERENT and UNRELATED persons…regarding zombies and Hell (1, 2, 3, 4), in the end-times and tribulation. Why do YOU ignore those cases, because you DON’T like them? But promote YOUR cases, because you LIKE them? IS that TRUE science??

If a “medical doctor” or “PhD scientist”, talked positively about UFOs, Zombies, ghosts, Flat Earth, etc…would you BELIEVE him or her - because of THEIR credentials ONLY?

Like, do you BELIEVE this guy?

Or THIS guy?

“You may be the only person left who believes in you, but it’s enough. It takes just one star to pierce a universe of darkness. Never give up.”-- Richelle E. Goodrich


#103

First, NDEs and ADCs are far, far more effective in converting atheists than conventional Christian apologetics.
Second, your arguments are akin to someone dismissing breakthroughs in modern medical disocoveries on the grounds that there are many snakeoil salesmen out there. The fact is that deductive proof is impossible in matters of postmortem survival; the issue is what is persuasive. My challenge is this: Watch all the posted videos and read all my accounts with an open mind and you will literally be incapable of retaining your skepticism. Is anyone out there honest enough to take up my challenge? I think not.


#104

Tell me WHY I should watch videos you post? Did YOU watch the videos I posted? Deciding what is REAL and what is SNAKE Oil, is a matter of perspective. That is why scientific research, scientific journals, academic rebuttals, etc. - are for. If you LOVE those videos and it helps to “increase your faith”, then run with it.


#105

What is it about people whose deceased loved ones return, drive vehicles, and provide detailed information about their investments that you don’t understand as evidence for the percipients?
And I promise you that if you can demonstrate that you have watched all my videos and read all my accounts, I will in turn watch all your videos. In short, I will do practically anything to lure you out of your spiritually suffocating myopic ideological box.


#106

How do YOU know it’s NOT demonic activity, psychosis, hallucinations, etc?


#107

Well, I have seen how inconsolable grief was almost instantly erased, how lives were changed, and how Leonard’s will settlement problems were greatly simplified by the information provided by his discarnate son. Your question is so absurd it invites that question, “How do you know that Jesus’ resurrection appearances were nothing but a combination of demonic deception and hallucinations?”


#108

Well, we HAVEN’T seen what you seen. So it’s NOT as common, as you believe. How many others here, have seen that stuff? And to answer your second question, Christ had complete power over demons. As Holy Scripture has clearly demonstrated. Unless you are NOT a Christian and don’t believe Holy Scripture. And Holy Scripture, does warn us to “test the spirits”. And see if they are “from God or not”.

NIV 1-john 4:1-6 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”


#109

shamans also perfrom exoricisms, just like Jesus. True, you haven’t seen what I’ve seen or known the ADCers and NDErs than I’ve known. But if you had, it would have changed your life and perspective. All I’m asking is that you watch my videos and read my accounts. Then the Holy Spirit will confirm the validity of these experiences to you spirit. I’m just trying to open your heart and mind to experiences that will change your life and perspective as they have mine. I remind you that most of the early Chrisitans had to take the discples’ word for it regarding Jesus’ ADCs.


#110

No they don’t. At least not in the same way. It’s more in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition than in the Native American one. I have hung around with REAL Tibetan Lamas. And REAL Native American medicine people. Both from North and South America. Other people may call them shamans. But it’s not the label they resonate with. And the Tibetan Lamas, Native American Medicine people, and Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox clergy…all perform any so called exorcisms, all within a ceremonial context - of some sort.

I have nothing against anything, that helps increases a person’s Christian faith and belief. In fact, if you click on my profile avatar…there are things in the meditation, therapy and light categories, that can be tools - to increase a person’s faith. And some tools I can neither confirm nor deny…whether I have ever taken part in or not. But if ADC and NDE stuff work for you…and makes you (or others), part of the Christian In-Crowd…then I am all for it.


#111

Set aside your culturally limited and myopic view of shamanism. You apparently haven’t read books like Michael Harner’s “The Way of the Shaman.” Nor are you aware of pagan Greek exorcists like Apollonius of Tyana or Jewish exorcists like Hanina ben Dosa. More to the point, you apparently lack the integrity to accept my challenge. I challenged you to watch all my posted videos and, in return, I promised to watch all the videos you posted. All I then asked is that you demonstrate having done so by engaging the thread in intelligent discussion. I then expressed my conviction that you would be convinced of the authenticity of many of these accounts. You focus on NDEs at the expense of continually ignoring the more compelling ADCs I have posted. Jesus’ resurrections appearances are a type of ADC.

Yes, what counts as NDEs is complicated by the elusive issue of clinical death. But promising, if inadequately established new medicinal drugs do not repudiate the effectivenessw of better tested drugs. By the same token, NDE and ADC verificatons and shared NDEs and ADCs are evidentially compelling quite apart from the slippery slope leading to more dubious cases.


#112

No, I haven’t. I hung around the REAL McCoys…from the Lakota, Ute and Ojibwa tribes. As well as hard to find, Tibetan lamas. I doubt very much, if these authors have the same real world experience - as I do.

I’m more into, what has been passed down - through the centuries. Like that from Orthodoxy. Or those from the Red Road, Not stuff that folks might call “new age”.

As far as NDE and ADC stuff goes, I already said…that I think some are real…And some are not real. And science needs to conduct more research, in these areas.

See, the difference between you and me…is I have many things, I share with folks…but I don’t try to “sell” them…Just as I don’t try to “sell”, any theological or philosophical point of view.

Except for Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4).

It’s the holiday weekend here, in the US. So I am on holiday.

As Sherlock Holmes once said:

“I am on holiday. This is a matter for the local police”

Or to paraphrase - for me:

I am on holiday. This is a matter for the local “experts”.

I think I hear, one trying to reply now…As I go watch “non-redeeming” shows on TV. :rofl:


#113

In other words,
(1) your knowledge of shamanism is based on narrow experience ,not on serious research into the history of the global phenomenon;

(2) you don’t realize that assessment of the merits of spiritual phenomena (your patronizing notion of “selling”) is the path to integrative spiritual knowledge;

(3) you reject my challenge to honest and open inquiry based on a willing to engage the hard work of research into experiences and perspectives that challenge personal bias.


#114

You can’t put shamanism into a box. Actually, you WON’T get an invite - to witness real, red road and amazon road ceremonies…let alone, participate in them. Unless you know someone. And they know your character very well. And they give you an official invite and take responsibility for your behavior. So how will the scientific “experts”, meet the REAL shamans? And I don’t like the word “shaman”. Call them medicine people. Or Lamas. Not shamans.

It’s a holiday now. So I am resting, the next 3 or 4 days. And might have to continue, this “exciting” dialogue later.