The Evangelical Universalist Forum

After Discussing These Things......

Okay, when I first came here I was open to Christian Universalism. I decided to go back to my old Calvinistic beliefs though. But after a few posts and discussion with you all on some of these things I can see your points. In particularly like the idea that Cindy brought to my attention on how there are a select few in this lifetime or God’s elect. They are the first-fruits. This would imply that there are second fruits. Also, Eric Fry has pointed out that God’s glory, in and of itself, has infinite value to God, in and of Himself. To those observers who could esteem it for its beauty and wonder, it is of varying value and worth, from near-infinite(since we as humans cannot truly comprehend infinity) to completely worthless to those who do not believe or who actively hate God. I see no way to justify infinite punishment for only a finite number of sins. I therefore also see no way to justify Penal Substitution. I must go back to Christus Victor atonement along with the idea that God’s justice not only serves punitive purposes but corrective purposes as well. I AM GOING TO STICK TO IT AS WELL. I have changed on this issue in the past but I see no way around it this time. I still believe that God is in control and that He will get what He wants in the end. Since He desires all to be saved then all will eventually be saved. Just my views.

Glory!!!

Absolutely!

Michael. When I saw your post about going back to Calvinism, I thought it was interesting how you could just change your entire belief system like putting on a different pair of shoes. And now you’re back! Why don’t you find out what YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE instead of trying to pigeon-hole yourself INTO a belief system? All God is asking you is to BELIEVE. Out of that BELIEF (verb) He will make clear your proper beliefs (noun). I say this with all love and sincereity, brother. I know the pain of feeling like your mind is tied up in knots. Let all that go for a while, chill. Just believe God loves you and is here, now and leading you. He will lovingly untie all the knots for you. You are in my prayers…Sass.

Hey Sass!

The only two beliefs I’ve changed is my beliefs on hell and Penal Substitution. It’s no biggy. But I thank you for your help.

Ok Michael, I’m sorry for assuming that then. To me though, Hell and Penal Substitution changes absolutely EVERYTHING. Take care.

Sass, a kind and gentle and loving reply worthy of a sister in the Lord.

And Michael – you are wise to consider all points. It has taken me a long time to allow God to tease out my thoughts on this subject, and I was nearly there (though I hadn’t known it even a day before) when I finally came here to ask a few questions that had been bothering me. Spend time with Father and allow Him to minister to your spirit. It is His ardent desire to transform you into the image of His Son and to make you into a magnificent display of His glory, my brother.

Blessings, Cindy

Thank you Cindy. I can tell you are a very compassionate and loving person. I appreciate your kind words. Grace and peace to you.

Michael,

For what it’s worth, it took me several months of very intense study and prayer and thinking obsessively about all the issues before I was able to really say I was certain. I’d go to bed certain and wake up in the morning full of questions and doubts. So, yeah, I understand the back and forth thing.

I’m glad you’re with us again! It’s a joyful place to be.

Sonia

Thanks Sonia. Yeah, it’s something that I have been struggling back and forth with for awhile. I can see how the text supports Universalism.

Here’s another aspect that I don’t see many mainstream Christians being familiar with - the Old Testament law of Jubilee. The link below leads to a good explanation of it as a type and shadow of UR in an online book at gods-kingdom-ministries.org (the site of Dr. Stephen Jones)

gods-kingdom-ministries.org/ … cfm?PID=18

I don’t know if you’ve encountered it before. Personally I find it a very compelling argument though others here don’t.

Regards.

Michael, that’s great news :slight_smile:
it’s important to have an open mind, and it seems to me like you have been studying hard and thinking honestly, and also it is patently obvious that you care about glorifying God, which is a beautiful thing in itself.
blessings to you!

i must say, i’ve been a Universalist for perhaps a year now, and i know the excitement you’re feeling still. it’s a beautiful concept!

some of that stuff on that site gets a bit mad, but i had totally forgotten the Year of Jubilee. i agree that it is a clear precedent for a total reconciliation and restoration of all things. thanks!

Hi Corpsy,

Yes I agree - I am no fan of the weblog on that site as he seems to be too end-timey for me especially when linking to dodgy news items of a rather ‘woo woo’ persuasion :wink:

However, I do like his Biblical teaching (which is his strength and calling) and find a satisfying ‘wholeness’ across the entire canon that resolves into UR (like the dischordant tension a composer introduces so that the resolution is all the more satisfying) - the whole of creation groaning (at the temporary, seemingly dischordant, injustices of life in this universe) for the glorious liberty of the Sons of God (the resolution to the tonic chord) ).

Jeff.

Hi Jeff - I hope you’re keeping well.
I used to listen to lots of Stephen Jones’ work and was very taken by it - but a few things puzzled me:

  1. His ‘numerology’ - do you know where he gets that stuff from because its absolutely fascinating but I could find no supporting evidence? ( I mean 153 fishes caught for example)
  2. His view of modern Israel worried me (ie Replacement Theology)
  3. His belief in British Israelite-ism

-any thoughts would be appreciated.

All the best

Hi Pilgrim,

I agree with all of your reservations as listed above and take them with a pinch of salt. The numerology (gematria) he got from this lady biblestudystorehouse.com/bonniegaunt (Bonnie Gaunt).

When cross-referencing within scripture I think he does a good job.

For me it took about a year to come to the conviction that Jesus really is the Savior of all, in deed not in some bogus title only sense. I actually believed such in my heart for months before I would admit to myself and others that I really believed UR; for me to do so took a specific word from God. I’ll never forget it, I was in the Spirit in worship one Sunday morning with the fellowship I used to be a part of (before they excluded me for believing UR) and the Spirit spoke very clearly too me saying, “Stop lying!” And I understood immediately what He meant. I was to stop saying that I was just studying about Hell, annihilation, and UR, and to fess up that I had come to believe in UR. Subconsciously I was reticent to admit to myself, much less anyone else, that I had come to believe in UR for I knew that it would cost me much in my personal relationships. And well, it did once I fessed up to my beliefs.

Looking back on it now I realize that for me, subconsciously, the tipping point came when I found out that Gehenna likely did not imply specifically ECT to the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking. As a boy growing up in FL, much sand, few rocks, I’d take the muddy sand and make mud-sand balls out of them to throw at things. They made excellent bombs for playing war with toy soldiers. Anyhow, these mud-sand balls when dried seemed pretty solid, but once a little pressure was applied they’d crack to pieces. Even just rubbing them lightly, sand would rub off. For me the doctrine of Hell was like that, just a light rub uncovered that neither Sheol or Hades meant Hell or implied ECT. So I applied just a little more pressure and in finding that Gehenna did not imply ECT to the Jews, for me, the doctrine of Hell began to fall apart into pieces. What I thought was “rock-solid” turned out to be nothing but muddy sand hardened by years of dry tradition!

Anyhow, Michael, I trust you’ve come to a place of peace and conviction, for which I am glad. May God bless you as you continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior!

Blessings,
Sherman