The Evangelical Universalist Forum

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Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#28

Your attempt at trying to connect Christian belief in God’s salvation of sinners from sin and back into loyalty with God under the headship of Christ, with the apostasy of the antichrist, has spectacularly failed every time you’ve attempted it, Aaron. Are you sure you want to go this route again?

Because the antichrist, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called ‘god’ and above every object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being the God (which is the kind of apostasy Paul was talking about at 2 Thess 2:3-4), would be (quite literally) just about the last person (except maybe Satan) who would go around encouraging people to believe that God in Christ, through the blood of His cross, does and shall reconcile all things to Himself, whether those things are in the heaven or on the earth. No rebel against God would seriously teach that all rebels against God shall eventually, thanks to God, cease rebelling, repent of their sins, and become loyal servants of God again (in many cases after having been punished by God).

#29

Did I touch a nerve, Jason? My position of the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues has been the position of the body of Christ since Paul taught it. :wink: The devil has done a fine job deceiving and keeping genuine Christians from this gift.

I’m not going to bring up all the heretical doctrines that the Roman Catholic church teach and their “dark ages” history.

#30

Yes, I did touch a nerve. The church’s apostasy ushers in the son of perdition, Jason. The church falls away first and then the son of perdition is revealed with the help of the apostate church. Off to work, have a good day. :wink:

#31

You are confusing your personal opinion with fact again.

#32

Also Jason I’m still trying to figure out your theory on how God himself is evangelizing all the people in hell right now and fails to bring one to salvation. Why aren’t these people accepting God’s invitation, Jason? God must be one lousy evangelist. hmmmm. :blush:

#33

That’s a different thread surely? :slight_smile:

#34

So once again your argument from majority doctrine fails, when it stops being our minority doctrine and starts becoming your minority doctrines. As expected.

Otherwise a universalist could answer just as easily, “Our position of God’s persistent salvation of all sinners from sin has been the position of the body of Christ since Paul taught it. :wink: The devil has done a fine job deceiving and keeping genuine Christians from this hope of the gospel.”

#35

And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
-Matthew 19:26

:laughing:

#36

Which isn’t my theory, which you keep conveniently ignoring. hmmm. :blush:

But as it happens I replied to that thread this morning before working on this one, too. :wink:

That’s because I touched a nerve. :laughing:

#37

Did you or did you not tell me God himself is evangelizing everyone in Hades/Hell right now? If you deny this I will provide the proof. :wink:

#38

:laughing: But that would not be true because the body of Christ has never held the position of UR. It has never ever been the position of the church, Jason. :smiley:

#39

Did I or did I not bold and underline the portion from your quote that I have always consistently denied believing, namely that God fails to bring even one of them to salvation?

Since I deny believing God fails to bring even one of them to salvation, and have always consistently denied believing it (despite your desperate attempts to paint me as believing it), then you aren’t talking about my theory.

#40

Only if by “the body of Christ” you mean the majority. But then you stop appealing to the majority as the body of Christ when you want to defend your own minority and even super-minority positions as being what “the body of Christ” has “always” believed.

That’s a flagrant double-standard for your own convenience: you want the majority to count when you think it’s in your favor, and for the majority not to count when you think it’s against your version of Christianity (in which case then the minority and even super-minority position that you hold becomes the ‘real’ body of Christ instead of the majority.)

#41

Jason

That is not the point whether or not you believe God fails to bring one of them to salvation… You said God himself is evangelizing people who are in Hell right now. That is what you said not anyone else therefore making it your theory.

Are you now backing off this erroneous belief? (which would be wise) If not, then why has not one soul accepted God’s invitation to get out of Hell? If one soul has accepted God’s evangelistic efforts then where is the evidence in scripture? Answer: The people who go to Hades/Hell have no chance to get out.(Luke 16:26) therefore God is not evangelizing anyone in Hell/Hades, and no one ever leaves, Jason. :open_mouth:

#42

Jesus got out of Hades, and all the spirits he preached to.

#43

Yeah, actually that is quite totally the point. Otherwise you wouldn’t keep trying to pretend I believe this, and would go after what I do believe instead.

That part is my theory. The part where I supposedly believe God fails to bring one of them to salvation is not my theory, but is something you added.

Are you now stopping claiming my theory and belief is that God fails to bring one of them to salvation?

I am not backing off what I actually do believe, instead of what I don’t believe, which is that God evangelizes people who are in hell right now. I don’t have to back off what I never believed which is that God fails to bring one of them to salvation.

As I said in the other thread, even I think the scriptural evidence on that is scanty. But I do at least discuss it in that other thread, whereas you have constantly avoided talking about that scriptural evidence in the other thread. :astonished: (Or, not exactly a :astonished: .)

I see (when I went to the active topics list to get the thread address) that you’ve added a reply in the past couple of minutes since I dropped in my most recent one, so perhaps you have finally decided to start talking about that scriptural evidence now. But I have my doubts.

#44

FWIW, I’d say 1 Timothy 2:3-6 and 4:10.

#45

Good verses, Jaxxen.

My most challenging verses (for UR) would be

Not that they can’t be answered satisfactorily (for me), but they are challenging. I did a blog post about this passage just because I find it the most difficult (that I know of).

Thanks for being honest and open, Brother. :slight_smile:

Blessings, Cindy

#46

Considering this is kind-of a joke page, I appreciate you volunteering those. It shows all the difference in the world between you and A37. (I mean aside from you being Calv and he being an ex-Calv Arminian. :slight_smile: )

Over on Aaron’s original challenge page, I volunteered the parables of the scattered seed, and the wheat and the weeds. But I’d have difficulties with those whichever soteriology I went with. (One looks very Calv, one looks weirdly anti-Arm and anti-Calv but not immediately Kath either, and neither one has anything to do with God saving sinners per se, from sin or from anything else, much moreso through Christ. But, hey: parables. :wink: )

#47

Yes - I’m afraid this thread should really be put to bed. As Jason says it was started as a parody of Revival’s thread over in the discussion negative forum - knowing full well that he would never seriously engage with it in the way he expected believers in UR to do in his thread.