Aaron,
It’s interesting that you quote PaulM’s “epic reply” as a challenge to us, and explicitly a portion of his reply which was grounded specifically on the notion that “Christ’s life, death, resurrection, final judgment, are all one event, spread out over time. Since Christ has been raised from the dead, history is in an important sense over.” PaulM’s argument being that since it is over it won’t continue, it’s only “already” and cannot be “not yet”.
One of my replies was that this runs directly counter to PaulM’s own acknowledgment that the already/not-yet theme is an important and true part of Christian theology, and that if PaulM’s principle application held any water at all it would shut down this already/not-yet application at the point of Christ’s completion on the cross, leaving Christ unable to save anyone afterward from sin (or else that the concept would actually point toward a hyper version of ultra-universalism!)
But anyway, what’s interesting is that you quote PaulM and his rationale against us (calling it “eloquent”), and then you yourself say you’re bothered by things I said where I agreed with him on what you yourself quoted from him against us.
This seems inconsistent, to put it politely.
Meanwhile, since I very consistently affirm the already/not-yet paradigm, there is no inconsistency in me agreeing with PaulM (where you quoted him against us) that the Parousia is as already completed as the Incarnation-Crucifixion-Resurrection-Ascension, because I obviously go right on to affirm that the Parousia is still on the way. (I could have hardly argued what I did in detail about 1 Cor 15 if I wasn’t affirming that the Parousia is still on the way, to give only one of many many many examples I could cite where I affirm that. My exegesis of RevJohn routinely affirms it, too, to give another example you ought to be personally familiar with. )
The Parousia is already completed from God’s perspective, but not yet from our position in natural history, but it’s guaranteed to occur in history thanks to it already being completed from from God’s perspective over and beyond natural spatio-temporal history.
If you’re complaining that I’m denying the Parousia is still on the way, you’re barking up the wrong tree, because I’m affirming that it’s still on the way, and as far as I know I have consistently and continually affirmed this in everything I’ve ever said or written to anyone on the topic for the past 35 years or so since I started studying the Bible in any systematic way at all.
On the other hand, neither have I ever once taught anyone (nor do I specifically believe myself) that the Day of Christ is at hand, i.e. about to come in the next few weeks or months or years, not least because I don’t identify anyone as the final Antichrist having come yet. (I tend to agree that the greatest tribulation must happen first, by the way, which it certainly hasn’t, and that it’ll last no less than seven years.)
So St. Paul’s remonstrance from 2 Thess that you quoted would not possibly apply to me in any fashion.
The end, moving on.
As to the final age, the age of eonian life and the kingdom of God/the heavens, having already begun: once again I also affirm (with the scriptures) that it’s still to come; but because the scriptures also routinely say that the final age has begun (in various ways) with the Incarnation and ministry of Christ, you need not complain to me about my also affirming what they also affirm. Or you can deny you have eonian life in you already as a Christian (the life specially involved with the Day of the Lord to come), and that you have joined the kingdom of God–in which case a lot of us will probably have some sharp things to say about your propensity to behave like a religious authority around here. But hopefully some of us will evangelically offer you the opportunity in Christ to begin experiencing eonian life in the kingdom now, and not wait until later.
(Personally I wouldn’t go so far as to say the final age has started early in the story of Genesis, but I know quite a lot of people think we’re in the seventh “Day” already based on what I would call a misreading there–it was the standard interpretation in Southern Baptist churches all during the time I was growing up for example–so I allowed for the possibility that it has been going on in some fashion for longer than the Incarnation.)
Anyway, since I’m not denying but rather affirming that the Day of the Lord is still to come (as well as having already started), your problem with me denying it is still to come is barking up the wrong tree again. You can have a problem with me believing both if you wish, since that would be accurate to my actual beliefs.
The end with that, too, then, moving on.
Having quoted me on three things you had a problem with me saying, as though I was denying they were also still to come (which I was not), you appear to then quote me on denying that the Parousia can involve a process to completion after the lake of fire judgment. But since I have been consistently affirming this (including in the 18 page reply you’re referencing), not denying it, since I became a Christian universalist (which is the main distinction for why I am a purgatorial universalist instead of an ultra-universalist), I will suppose you forgot the previous format of your presentation in your excitement, and stated your own belief there (that the Parousia cannot involve a process to completion after the lake of fire judgment) over against what I actually believe, which is what you have the actual problem with.
Since any consideration of that would take reams longer than any single comment, I’ll move on to what seems to be the main reason you launched this thread.
PaulM afterward acknowledged that if universalists find scriptural support for the already/not-yet to be extended past the 2nd Coming, that would go a long way toward answering his argument. I had noted that one place we find it is in 1 Cor 15 itself, which I also noted he didn’t bother to examine in detail on that topic.
Be that as it may: as it happens I don’t think he extended his critique in the other direction, as you’re doing below, and that seems a fair enough tactic, which I suspect he’d agree with in principle, too.
I don’t think acknowledging that the not-yet reconciliation continues into the age to come, comes at a high hermeneutical and exegetical price at all, or I wouldn’t believe scripture testifies to it. (On the contrary I routinely use the same hermenutical and exegetical techniques on this topic as I do when arriving at trinitarian results.)
On the other hand, I don’t recall offhand seeing much scriptural testimony to the effect that the offer of reconciliation is extended to sinners during the interim. Which is why I rarely talk about it being a doctrine testified in scripture, and typically reference 1 Peter when I do, along with some possible hints of it elsewhere.
If I thought the scriptures said absolutely nothing about it, I still wouldn’t think it impossible–I have no conceptual problem believing that the offer of reconciliation applies in the interim and is accepted, and rather an expectation of it happening. That there is apparent testimony to the effect that some disembodied spirits in the interim continue rebelling and continue being punished until the general resurrection, is no more evidence against spirits in the interim repenting and being saved from their sins, than testimony to the effect that some embodied spirits (namely humans) continue rebelling for any length of time before death would be evidence against some embodied spirits repenting and being saved from their sins. The categories are not mutually exclusive in the sense that the occurrence of one precludes any occurrence of the other.
To the extent that soul sleep occurs instead of conscious existence (for which there is some scriptural evidence either way, and against which I have no theological coherency problem either way), then it is a non-problem of course. But I expect (including from scriptural evidence) that Gehenna starts for at least some sinners before the general resurrection.