The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Amazed I Used to Believe in ECT

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

I’m overwhelmed today with the reality that I used to believe in ECT. I watched a short report on the sex trafficing industry alive and growing in the USA and around the world. It was the testimony of a woman who was sold as a sex-slave when she was only 12 years old, sold by a family member. Her life was Hell-on-Earth. At one point a man even paid to douse her in gas and set her on fire and watch her die. She survived though and shared her testimony (cbn.com/700club/features/ama … dward.aspx). And just think, if she had died, according to the traditional doctrine of ECT, she’d have been burning in Hell forever because she had not been saved, never chose to follow Jesus.

When I consider the millions of people whose lives are hell on earth, and think that I use to believe that on one hand God claimed to love these people enough to die for them, suffer the full penalty of their sin for them, and yet cast them into hell forever because they were never saved, this just blows my mind, now. And yet, I use to believe just that.

#2

Sherman,

How very, horribly sad! I almost didn’t click on your link, but what a story. And you’re right. This sort of thing just serves to highlight the inconsistency and hypocrisy of the whole ECT doctrine. Even the idea of annihilation, which many will point to as a remedy for this hideous concept of never ending torture falls so far short of what one would expect of the God who embodied Himself in our Lord Jesus. HE does not throw away His children. And worse, can anyone imagine Jesus taking this young girl down into “hell” and continuing to watch her burn for all eternity? That we would equate our holy God with a pervert who’s greatest fantasy is to watch a child burn to death is worse – far worse – than the worst heresy. And we (not me, so much, but you certainly) are the ones being accused of heresy? That is too far gone to even be laughable.

It’s beyond disturbing to think that this sort of thing happens here, and that highly paid professionals are the clients. I just don’t know what to say. Thanks for posting this, Brother. I’ve printed it off, and I think I will bring it to the church next week.

Love in Him, Cindy

#3

Sherman,

I don’t know IF this goes along with your post or not… if not, I apologize. But I’ve wondered ever since my introduction to UR 10 years ago, whether or not some of us are NOW living out our own “hell,” or maybe better put, refinement, restoration, etc.? I no longer believe in annihilation, which is what I was taught, but do you think it possible that in this present day we are either being “tested” or actually living in that “hell” so as to prepare us for the Kingdom? The reason I ask this is because I can’t wrap my head or my heart around those who are suffering tremendous abuse, great physical pain, emotional pain, mental disorders (for which that soul has no control), the loneliness that poor, poor little girl suffered at the hands of her abuser, all the marginalized folks out there… it just makes me really wonder what the purpose in all that is??? Unless, like I suggest, we already ARE living our own individual hells right now. I don’t mean to sound like a downer here, but I do have a very hard time with this particular issue. Guess that’s WHY I GRABBED on to UR when I did and didn’t really question it, as it SAVES EVERYONE eventually, regardless of their given circumstances that they had NO control over. You know, even the loneliness that some feel (and of course, most would not admit to that) can be crushing. :cry: Being ALONE is one thing, but being lonely even when one is in relationships IS hell on earth. IMHO. So maybe my question is way to simple, and it comes from the heart, therefore I don’t know how much merit to give it because IF I determined my OWN personal relationship with Jesus on how I “feel” on any given day, well, I’d be doomed. I have to believe for my sanity that LOVE runs way deeper than a feeling, that God’s love runs so deep for this child you referred to that HE HAS to save her, HE just has to!!! And IF God were to judge each of us on a daily basis according to our actions, and then decided to withhold His love based on that, I’m screwed. So many variables that would interfer with my salvation, it scares me to think about it. The way I was raised, you were loved IF and only IF you behaved in a certain manner. That love was withdrawn quite easily if I missed the mark, so love for me is a very difficult concept. Especially with God. Love was ALWAYS conditional… I’m thinking about my own experience as a small boy… I can relate to this poor little girl and what her family did to her by selling her, that is her ONLY known expression of love, HOW in the heck does she EVER overcome this? How does she ever see that the essence of God is love when she has been abandoned by those who are supposed to love her most?? Clearly, I’m very confused on this. But I say again, even without a satisfactory answer to my question, thank God for UR as it DOES make room for all of us and our given set of circumstances. Maybe I’m just pondering and should hit the delete key, BUT this topic you brought up really brings it home to me that there are those of us who really WANT to relate to God as loving but don’t know how, due to things beyond our control. I come back to, maybe we are being “refined” now. That’s the best I can come up with for my pea-picking brain. These stories like the one you told above, just break my heart. Actual tears of sorrow for that type of suffering. Enough of my trying to figure it all out, I don’t think I ever will. :frowning:

Blessings to you Sherman,

Bret

#4

Not to answer for Sherman, but it seems to me that there is some indication in scripture that believers at least are being judged now (judgment begins with the house of God). Inasmuch as we can say that “hell” is a state of being rather than a place, It would seem possible for anyone at any time to experience “hell”, just as it is possible for anyone to experience salvation both now and in the future. One potential piece of scriptural evidence for this is where David in the psalms writes “You have redeemed my life from the pit.”
To me, what we have traditionally called “hell” is really ‘just’ an experience of separation from God, which can just as easily happen now as it can at any time. I think we need to not confuse this with a process of refinement though. Everyone will be salted with fire.

#5

Hi Bret,

Paul actually says Jesus saves us from “this present evil age” Gal.1.4. No where does scripture say that Jesus saves us from ECT or Hell (or affirm the existance of Hell). Anyhow, my point is that the realm we exist in now is filled with evil. We are consumed by evil from within and without. I believe that demonic forces of evil oppress people individually and corporately. For many people the kingdom of darkness is all they every know in this life. They are born into it and have no concept that there is anything outside of the slavery into which they were born. Few, very few relatively speaking, throughout history have experienced the salvation of the Lord and the freedom of the Kingdom of God that is available in this life. And we who have tasted of this freedom still suffer evil in many ways and will continue to suffer until the full revelation/manifestation of the kingdom of God - whether that comes with Christ returning or with us going to Him through death.

So being we are privaledged to have been saved, to have tasted of the kingdom of God, we now live our lives not to some day go to heaven but to bring heaven to earth! Thus we pray, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” And yet we to a greater or lesser degree remain bound in fleshly bodies of death and decay, longing for the full manifestation of being a child of God. And our hearts break with the broken as we long for more of God to fill us and fill those whom we know and love.

As far as punishment and judgment to come, I believe that, well, we shall all have the Hell burnt out of us by Truth! And those of us who have tasted of the kingdom of God have tasted of the judgment of God and have already been purified/healed/delivered to one degree or another. We shall all face the absolute truth concerning how we’ve lived. And I get the feeling that every good deed we do in this evil world shall be celebrated, bad deeds will be shown grace and mercy because the Lord knows we are but human, but the evil practices that we’ve chosen to live in will be dealt with as needed to deliver us from evil. Brokenness shall be healed, relationships restored, evil delivered from, as we embrace fully the forgiveness and love of God!

#6

Great answer Sherman!

#7

Yes Sherman, great answer and I’m NOT being sarcastic whatsoever!! :slight_smile: Thank you for your time and patience, this is a topic near and dear to MY heart so I really appreicate your thoughtfulness and respect in answering me.

Many blessings,
Bret

#8

Its the guy that wanted to watch the child burn that keeps me from selling out to UR. But I also know he must have been messed up by someone or something

#9

Hi NimbleWill,

Would you please elaborate on what you mean by “selling out to UR?” I don’t understand, but then again, I’m NOT the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree!! :laughing: I’m REALLY curious what YOU mean… it might just HELP ME process my own twisted thoughts on this issue… so ANY type of elaboration would be greatly appreciated. :confused:

Thanks NimbleWill…

Bret

P.S. And after reading a post that Alex put out under (I think) Agnostics and Atheism, I AM beginning to rethink some things for myself. His link was long, but boy, it sure got me thinking in the direction of JeffA (that’s a compliment Jeff!! :wink: ) and as my Dad used to say,“Buddy, YOUR head is a very dangerous neighborhood, you NEVER want to go there by yourself!!” :stuck_out_tongue:

#10

For me, the amazing thing is not the belief that God might fail and hence some are lost to an eternity without God.
Far more, I am more than amazed, even dumbfounded, that any can believe God deliberately chooses some to go to hell.
As an arminianist, it was a relatively small change for me to come to the conclusion that God might actually succeed in his desire to save all.
For a Calvinist, he has to actually change his object of worship into an entirely different God. He has to stop worshipping a god who creates some specifically for the pleasure of seeing them roast, and has to start worshiping a God who loves the whole of humanity, a God who IS love.
It’s no wonder that Calvinists who have converted to UR are shocked, amazed, bowled over and cock-a-hoop to discover that their creator is, after all, a benevolent being.

#11

I’ve come to believe that “except for the grace of God there go I.” Some people are so bent, warped, twisted from genetics and environment that it is almost impossible for them to not give in to evil. So I leave the judging of others to God. The more I understand just how terribly messed up I am, the more I realize just how much salvation is completely a work of God, and the greater hope I have for all humanity, even guys like the one that wanted to see a child burn to death.

#12

Amen, Sherman…

#13

I desparately want to believe its true and tell the world but somethings seem to hold me back. I was raised to believe in ETC and through several experiences found UR. Just too much religious baggage.

#14

That story is so amazing - showing the depths of human depravity but also the far greater depths and power of God’s love and compassion… :slight_smile: It also helps you to grasp why God’s wrath - righteous anger at injustice such as this - exists at sin, not as a counterblast to love but as a particularly intense form of active love. :slight_smile: Thank you for sharing!