An Honest Question to Purgatorial Universalists


#1

If the restitution of all things, where all are brought together under Christ, occurs at the resurrection from the dead, which occurs alongside the second coming of Christ, then how is it that there shall be any punishment after the resurrection. Do you believe in the purgation of the soul post-resurection? How is this consistent with the dating of the restitution of all things?


#2

Origen (A.D. 185-254) had no problem with “purgatorial universalism”:


#3

I’m not looking forward to being purged. :imp:


#4

But, how is Origen’s view consistent with the scripture? What in the scripture warrants his belief?


#5

What do you mean? I thought that Christians were to be raised in incorruption without any stain of sin whatsoever? Do you not get that picture from reading 1 Corinthians 15? Where do you get this idea from the scripture that believers will be purged in the sense of being punished post-resurrection?


#6

You have to understand that the idea is first mooted AND THEN all manner of texts get thrown around like confetti to make it sound like such is legitimate and true… long story short — it’s NOT true!!


#7

2 Peter 2:9 So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment.

From this I would tend to think that the “purgation” occurs in the state between (edit: between LIFE and on through) physical death and resurrection. However other translations seem to indicate God is keeping the wicked for punishment at the day of judgment. I really don’t think we have enough scriptural information to say exactly how this will play out. The former seems most reasonable to me. I like to think of it in the way GMac describes it in “Lilith” where the dead, while they “sleep,” experience dreams in which they are matured and have experiences and possibly face the monster-selves that some of them have become (well one of them at any rate, though the thoughtful reader will suspect that all face the good and bad features in themselves and learn to choose the sweet and reject the bitter.) If you haven’t read “Lilith” I strongly recommend reading it oh, seven or eight times until you begin to understand it. :laughing: Search for “Lilith” by George MacDonald. You can find it read aloud and in print (both for free in electronic format.)


#8

Couldn’t agree more.
Paul is clear about that terrible (see below*) word ‘wrath’ -

  • but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek.

I mean, he says it right there. Wrath, fury, tribulation, distress. Gads those are weighty words.

  • However, Wright makes a point that I’d never thought of, concerning wrath, and it’s inner meaning of hopefulness!!
    “God’s wrath means precisely the determination not to give evil the last words, to root out from the good creation all that defaces and destroys it…It is because the creator God remains implacably opposed to all the forces of evil that there is hope. The revelation of wrath is itself, however paradoxically, part of the good news.” - NT Wright’s commentary

To me as a semi-Evangelical Universalist :wink: wrath is not the end of the story. But I found the comments very interesting.


#9

What’s not true? No punishment for the wicked after their resurrection?

Are you, then, now, an ultra URist? Meaning there will be no after death punishment, sufferings or correction for anyone.


#10

Does Wright see this “rooting out” of evil from creation being effected by endless annihilation of the wicked like JW’s & others CI advocates?


#11

If you are referring to “the times of restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21, KJV), is there anything in the context indicating this will occur at one moment, namely the “second coming of Christ” when there is “the resurrection from the dead”? I would note that it says “times” (plural), not time (singular).

There is also the matter of there being multiple resurrections spoken of in the Scriptures:

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. (Rev.20)

They cannot all be resurrected when Christ returns, since they occur 1000 years apart.

Following the 2nd resurrection, men will be judged by their works, & those not found in the book of life cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death (Rev.20:10-15). Jesus said the judgement would be more tolerable for some than others (Matthew 10).

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

Rev.14:11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name. (CLV)

And after resurrection there are those who will experience shame & contempt (the wrath of God, Rom.2?):

Dan.12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to eonian life, others to shame and eonian contempt.

And those who died in a state of “being incensed against Him” will thereafter be “ashamed”:

Isa.45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

That “shame” could occur inbetween death & resurrection, or must occur after resurrection, depending on one’s view of the “state of the dead”. Either way, these passages (and others) rule out ultra-URism.

Ultra-Universalism Refuted:


#12

As you’ve ably demonstrated my point above… you have to read this notion into these texts VIA your presuppositions you first bring TO the texts.

You’re right Dave… weighty words indeed and no skerrick of postmortem with all such being pertinent to life.


#13

I was thinking of your previous “fence sitting” position on the doctrine of Ultra Universalism. Yet in this thread you stated:

Hence my questions:

What’s not true? No punishment for the wicked after their resurrection?

Are you, then, now, an ultra URist? Meaning there will be no after death punishment, sufferings or correction for anyone.


#14

:laughing: I encourage anyone to go back to that thread you just linked to above and read all my posts challenging your PU (purgatorial universalism) and let them decided who wouldn’t answer and did their best to duck around questions.

I note also you plastered “Ultra-Universalism Refuted” for that thread — I’m not here to defend U-U but for you to add “Refuted” is just way too precious! :laughing:


#15

So IOW you have - no comment - on whether or not your position has changed?

A simple yes or no will do.

Are you now a Ultra Universalist?

Or still a “fence sitter”?

Since you said:

What evidence do you have to share that “it’s NOT true!!”?


#16

I’m neither UU nor PU… I’m a pantelist and all my answers in kind with my previous answers in this thread start HERE… just follow “davo” down through the pages and see PU wiped. :mrgreen:


#17

So i take it your “on the fence” position remains the same. As posted in that thread:

"So to put several of your thoughts together:

1] You have no fear of after death torments for anyone, but
2] If you were God there would be postmortem redress, yet
3] You don’t lean in that direction but lean against it, although
4] The biblical text remains arguably silent on the matter

Do that about sum it up?"

I wonder why God would remain “silent on the matter”. Surely He must have some insights re the topic.


#18

I’d rather trust context…


#19

There’s so much suffering on earth I hope there’s no postmortem suffering.


#20

Well, the problem is this. It’s left up to the imagination, to determine how postmortem suffering plays out. I was thinking about the show It’s a Wonderful life.

And there’s a saying that:

So here’s one thought, about how this could play out. Each person experiencing postmortem suffering is given a bell. They ring it when they want to repent and accept Christ. That way, an angel gets its wings.

And everyone is:

Now I’m just letting my imagination run wild - mind you. Which is what we might all be doing. :wink: