The Evangelical Universalist Forum

An Honest Question to Purgatorial Universalists

You have to understand that the idea is first mooted AND THEN all manner of texts get thrown around like confetti to make it sound like such is legitimate and true… long story short — it’s NOT true!!

2 Peter 2:9 So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment.

From this I would tend to think that the “purgation” occurs in the state between (edit: between LIFE and on through) physical death and resurrection. However other translations seem to indicate God is keeping the wicked for punishment at the day of judgment. I really don’t think we have enough scriptural information to say exactly how this will play out. The former seems most reasonable to me. I like to think of it in the way GMac describes it in “Lilith” where the dead, while they “sleep,” experience dreams in which they are matured and have experiences and possibly face the monster-selves that some of them have become (well one of them at any rate, though the thoughtful reader will suspect that all face the good and bad features in themselves and learn to choose the sweet and reject the bitter.) If you haven’t read “Lilith” I strongly recommend reading it oh, seven or eight times until you begin to understand it. :laughing: Search for “Lilith” by George MacDonald. You can find it read aloud and in print (both for free in electronic format.)

Couldn’t agree more.
Paul is clear about that terrible (see below*) word ‘wrath’ -

  • but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek.

I mean, he says it right there. Wrath, fury, tribulation, distress. Gads those are weighty words.

  • However, Wright makes a point that I’d never thought of, concerning wrath, and it’s inner meaning of hopefulness!!
    “God’s wrath means precisely the determination not to give evil the last words, to root out from the good creation all that defaces and destroys it…It is because the creator God remains implacably opposed to all the forces of evil that there is hope. The revelation of wrath is itself, however paradoxically, part of the good news.” - NT Wright’s commentary

To me as a semi-Evangelical Universalist :wink: wrath is not the end of the story. But I found the comments very interesting.

What’s not true? No punishment for the wicked after their resurrection?

Are you, then, now, an ultra URist? Meaning there will be no after death punishment, sufferings or correction for anyone.

Does Wright see this “rooting out” of evil from creation being effected by endless annihilation of the wicked like JW’s & others CI advocates?

If you are referring to “the times of restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21, KJV), is there anything in the context indicating this will occur at one moment, namely the “second coming of Christ” when there is “the resurrection from the dead”? I would note that it says “times” (plural), not time (singular).

There is also the matter of there being multiple resurrections spoken of in the Scriptures:

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. (Rev.20)

They cannot all be resurrected when Christ returns, since they occur 1000 years apart.

Following the 2nd resurrection, men will be judged by their works, & those not found in the book of life cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death (Rev.20:10-15). Jesus said the judgement would be more tolerable for some than others (Matthew 10).

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

Rev.14:11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name. (CLV)

And after resurrection there are those who will experience shame & contempt (the wrath of God, Rom.2?):

Dan.12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to eonian life, others to shame and eonian contempt.

And those who died in a state of “being incensed against Him” will thereafter be “ashamed”:

Isa.45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

That “shame” could occur inbetween death & resurrection, or must occur after resurrection, depending on one’s view of the “state of the dead”. Either way, these passages (and others) rule out ultra-URism.

Ultra-Universalism Refuted:

As you’ve ably demonstrated my point above… you have to read this notion into these texts VIA your presuppositions you first bring TO the texts.

You’re right Dave… weighty words indeed and no skerrick of postmortem with all such being pertinent to life.

I was thinking of your previous “fence sitting” position on the doctrine of Ultra Universalism. Yet in this thread you stated:

Hence my questions:

What’s not true? No punishment for the wicked after their resurrection?

Are you, then, now, an ultra URist? Meaning there will be no after death punishment, sufferings or correction for anyone.

:laughing: I encourage anyone to go back to that thread you just linked to above and read all my posts challenging your PU (purgatorial universalism) and let them decided who wouldn’t answer and did their best to duck around questions.

I note also you plastered “Ultra-Universalism Refuted” for that thread — I’m not here to defend U-U but for you to add “Refuted” is just way too precious! :laughing:

So IOW you have - no comment - on whether or not your position has changed?

A simple yes or no will do.

Are you now a Ultra Universalist?

Or still a “fence sitter”?

Since you said:

What evidence do you have to share that “it’s NOT true!!”?

I’m neither UU nor PU… I’m a pantelist and all my answers in kind with my previous answers in this thread start HERE… just follow “davo” down through the pages and see PU wiped. :mrgreen:

So i take it your “on the fence” position remains the same. As posted in that thread:

"So to put several of your thoughts together:

1] You have no fear of after death torments for anyone, but
2] If you were God there would be postmortem redress, yet
3] You don’t lean in that direction but lean against it, although
4] The biblical text remains arguably silent on the matter

Do that about sum it up?"

I wonder why God would remain “silent on the matter”. Surely He must have some insights re the topic.

I’d rather trust context…

Well, the problem is this. It’s left up to the imagination, to determine how postmortem suffering plays out. I was thinking about the show It’s a Wonderful life.

And there’s a saying that:

So here’s one thought, about how this could play out. Each person experiencing postmortem suffering is given a bell. They ring it when they want to repent and accept Christ. That way, an angel gets its wings.

And everyone is:

Now I’m just letting my imagination run wild - mind you. Which is what we might all be doing. :wink:

Our Lord said, “For everyone will be salted with fire.” (Mark 9:49)

Yes, that is figurative language. But what does it represent? Literal salt and fire are both purifying agents.

There are many killers here on earth who may threaten us with death. Often these people carry our their threats. Many early Christians were put to death by burning them at stake, or by throwing them to the lions, or subjecting them to gladiators. In the middle ages, even the religlious leaders put many to death among those who disagreed with them.

When “the body” is killed, the person is gone, seemingly never to return again. But our Lord assures his listeners that these murdered persons are not gone forever! As stated three times in John 6, He will raise them up again at the last day. So their very essence, their “soul” is not permanently wiped out by death. They cannot “kill the soul”.

It is important to recognize that some scriptures use “destroy” in a different way from that which the modern person thinks of it. We think of destruction as annihilation, or we think of it as smashing something in such a way that it is rendered useless. It’s original form has been altered. Sometimes “destroy” is used in the New Testament in the sense of refining something, so that the original form is altered to a purified form. Consider the following passage from I Peter 1:3-6 ESV and verse 7, another translation:

Verse 7

Notice it is the proving of your faith which is much more valuable than the proving of gold. Peter speaks of “gold that is being destroyed through fire”. Now we know that gold is not annihilated or even destroyed in the sense of being rendered useless (such as a toy that is destroyed by smashing it). Rather the original form of the gold, the ore, is destroyed and the impurities removed so that after the refining process is complete, only the pure gold remains.So it is with the proving of our faith through various trials. We are refined, impurities removed until we come forth as “pure gold”.

So fear God who is able to destroy a person’s original character in Gehenna, by refining that character, and thus altering it. Why should we fear God lest we are required to be so refined? Because it is a painful process ---- much better that we should coöperate with the enabling grace of God for purification now, so that we won’t have to undergo that severe process. Even now, we may have to endure hardships which will help us to submit to present purification as the text indicates.

Here is a quite different translation of 1 Peter 1:7:

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found to praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Ellicott’s commentary opines:

“That perisheth, though it be tried with fire.—Rather, which is a thing that perisheth, and yet is tried through fire. The argument is this. Gold is a perishable thing, and comes to an end with the rest of the world, or is worn away with handling and is lost; and yet men take great pains to test it and show that it contains no dross, and do so by means of fire. How much more may we expect a fiery trial (1Peter 4:12) to test the character of our belief in the unseen Christ…” biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/1-7.htm

Is the refining of character in this life equally painful to that in Gehenna? How would you respond to someone who says they’ll take the refining later in Gehenna rather than now in this life?

This verse comes to mind:

New International Version
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. (Mal.3:2)