The Evangelical Universalist Forum

An Honest Question to Purgatorial Universalists

Yes you may be right but what evidence do we have that says that at the end of a persons earthy existence, that all of what we are or have been is not accounted for? :astonished:

As for guilt of past sins and trespasses, yes; but the ongoing principle is: no condemnation ‘for those who walk according to the Spirit.’ And: " If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."
There is a big ‘IF’ right there.

It’s not MY “sooner or later…” It’s the TEXT of The Message’s paraphrase.

Jason has referred to many texts that indicate postmortem correction, but you are stubbornly unwilling to accept them as such. Here is one that can’t possibly refer to A.D. 70 or antemortem life:

AFTER HE HAS KILLED, He has the authority to cast into hell. If it’s this life that’s hell, how is He going to cast them into it AFTER He has killed?

that’s pointing to a post-mortem distinction” What? This is so, ONLY because you assert it is so, and yet remains a mile from being established as fact.

The “sole” or identity or very essence (reputation) of the person cast headlong into Gehenna for the Jew would have been the height of disgrace and dishonour — ‘after the killing’ NOT ‘after death ’— which then as you do, read postmortem affliction INTO it has nothing to do with it.

Well Jason… that either side of your [size=150]:[/size] is utter and complete contradictory double-dutch! And besides… by the very nature of things “Gehenna threats” WERE at Jesus’ words, IF such can be trusted… something to be avoided — the WHOLE point of his words to his disciples… again, stick with the context and stop trying to project it where it NEVER lay! :unamused:

Jesus’ parable wasn’t a teaching on postmortem… his recounting of popular legend was to make the very stark point that if hardened Israel wouldn’t accept or listen to Moses or the prophets… neither would they be convinced of one rising from the dead — such as Jesus did. Not only that… IF you are going to accept this as Jesus’ “gospel” account of postmortem reality, then there is indeed an impassable gulf postmortem — what does THAT do to your universalism? I suppose one sleight of hand manoeuvre might be the simplistic claim that… the scribe misheard Jesus.

Why you feel the need to pad out your posts with pointless empty rhetoric is beyond me. :unamused:

And YET the context making reference to postmortem :question: Zip, zero, zilch! :unamused:

I’ve made NO case for any lack of a “clearly punitive Gehenna warning” — I’ve simply stated there is NO case for such as you’ve raised postmortem, and your very many words have given very little evidence to the contrary.

The answer to THAT is in the post above to Jason. One clue… the Roman soldiers cast countless bodies to the smouldering fires of gehenna in the valley below Jerusalem’s walls where the worms (maggots) were in no lack of supply.

Does “no condemnation” mean no shame etc, or does it mean… no postmortem affliction — what saith the Scripture? IF all who were placed in Adam were subsequently placed in Christ (there is a big ‘IF’ right there) what are you saying does “no condemnation” then actually mean?

Thus read in its historical context can mean… God’s Spirit will vivify and strengthen them through their forthcoming trials and tribulations, cf. 2Cor 4:11.

Well, what is saith is what I quoted. No condemnation for those who walk according to the Spirit, which is ONLY possible if one does, in fact, have the Spirit of God.

Everything is in historical context, of course. Not a problem. But it would be strange to think that all that Paul learned from the HolySpirit in those desert years and after was meant only for the upcoming tribulation. I think it’s clear - it is to me - that Paul who was the apostle to the GENTILES was taught by God for that and all generations. Exceptions of course for the context of individual church instruction at the time.

So why should Jesus’ listeners fear that (after death) their bodies be cast into the Valley of Hinnom? What would there be to fear?

I, for one, couldn’t care less what happens to my body after death. My body is not I. If animals tear my body apart, or if it is cremated, or if maggots feast on it, I won’t be at all aware of it, so why would I FEAR what is done to my post-mortem body? Again:

There is no rational reason whatever to fear the casting one’s body after death into the earthly Gehenna.

Yep that’s fair enough. One might ask… what did that mean then in the outworking of Israel’s redemption, and what can it mean now in consequence of fulfillment? (assuming that perspective of course)

Unfortunately it IS these exceptions that evangelicalism reads right over in its quest to make the Scriptures relevant to US… as though taking historicity into account somehow quashes that — my argument would be that considering historicity could help curtail so many “out there” dogmas.

I’m all for making biblical principles work for us… I think considering context just helps us beyond those days do it in such a way as to, as Paul did say… “learn not to think beyond what is written” — always a safer way to help NOT read assumptions back into texts… easy to say, harder to do.

That you or I couldn’t give a rip isn’t the point… such shame did carry cultural weight for them in their day in terms of loss — someone consigned to gehenna was the lowest of ignominious ends, i.e., total abandonment / forgotten. The [con]text then of Luke immediately following on say this…

That they didn’t have our rationale isn’t always fully appreciated.

Please provide some evidence for your interpretation. In Scripture or historical.

There is more than one resurrection, only the rigtheous rise at Christ’s coming.

agreed…far far too much suffering…not to mention all the suffering of innocent animals