The Evangelical Universalist Forum

An Inferred Argument for Penal Substitution

Please excuse me posting a long-ish extract from a book freely available on Google Books, but there are many available there from what seems to be a golden age of universalist writings in the early to mid nineteenth century (many like this one of Unitarian bent). However, many of them have a view of the atonement in the original sense of the word at-one-ment meaning a reconciliation; and in the direction from God toward us and not vice versa. From the book Theology of universalism: being an exposition of its doctrines and teachings … By Thomas Baldwin Thayer 1862

I think, Bobx3, this would accord more with your distaste of Christ’s sacrifice as a violent appeasement of an angry God. Certainly this kind of thinking on the cross coupled with Universalism as a whole is a startling contrast to the Hellfire and vicious punishment of Jesus to appease God Christian world in which I grew up (and was believed with absolute certainty and fervour by generations of my family).

Bob, such a glib dismisal doesn’t make much sense. Robin Parry the author of The Evangelical Universalist makes a great effort to show that Universalism should be considered within the Evangelical fold. Why would he bother?

You call glib arguing that what matters is that our faith is Biblical. I call that the essence of being evangelical. But you seem to want to call names and argue about them, rather than ever get to engaging the Scriptures. That’s a form of evangelicalism in which Robin Parry has no interest.

Jeff, I appreciate the quote from Thayer! I moved away from a purely penal substitutionary concept of atonement some years ago, but still am trying to comprehend what it really means. The ruts of old thinking patterns are not easy to break out of–and it’s good to hear it explained in different ways by multiple people who seem to have some kind of understanding. This helps greatly. I think I’ll be working on this idea for awhile yet before I really feel I understand. I like how George MacDonald has one of his fictional characters say, “I desire to understand what God means by the Atonement.”

I’m also slowly working my way through the (very long!) old thread on Penal Substitution and Universalism that Bob linked to earlier in this thread–which I hadn’t seen before–and I’m also reading Bob Wilson’s 2 page Penal Substitution paper (which is excellent–lots of concepts are squeezed into those two pages. Thanks Bob!) And looking forward to reading Bobx3’s essay on Getting what we deserve–I always appreciate your thoughts!

Sonia

Who decides whose being the most biblical? Isn’t “biblical” just another ‘label’? We read the Scriptures through the lens of tradition, wether we realize it or not. There’s no such thing as a pure neutral reading of Scripture, we’re all fallible humans reading it through a particular set of historical assumptions. Saying otherwise implies it’s possible to entirely neutral!

Luke, I respect your point that seeking to be Biblical is problematic because of presuppositions that we all bring to the text. Religious liberals always make that very classical argument that the Bible is such a “wax nose” that it is useless in the pursuit of valid beliefs.

Yet I personally reject your case for avoiding discussion of Scripture. Perhaps you are right that this is only because my tradition is in evangelicalism where wrestling with the Bible’s story has a central place in forming one’s convictions. But it may explain why I am less skeptical than you about its’ usefulness. I actually find real help and rich edification in it.

Luke,
As I reflect on ALL of our interactions, it seems that each time you present arguments for why we should not engage in serious interaction about the Scripture, but you insist that it is vital to be “evangelical.” Since my experience in evangelicalism was that Scripture should play an authoritative role in evaluating our beliefs, I am curious how you are defining “evangelical.” Do you see a particular interpretation of the reformation as complete, providing the last word?

Incidentally, Thayer’s research bears out what George MacDonald (absolutely a trinitarian, not a unitarian :wink: ) used to remind his readers in the 19th century: the word first deployed for biblical translation by the Authorized Version compilers, ‘atonement’, is actually ‘at-one-ment’ (meaning at-one-ment) not ‘a-tone-ment’ (meaning nothing).

I realize penal substitutionary theory is very popular among evangelicals right now, but trying to tie it into evangelicalism may be like trying to make either Calvinism or Arminianism ‘evangelical’ with the other not.

Maybe that’s an historical assumption, or have we as moderns escaped subjectivity?

Bob, that’s an Ad hominem argument to imply I’m someone whose reluctant to engage with Scripture. I would have thought it’s self-evident that the definition of evangelicalism is as much sociological and historical as it is doctrinal.

Bob, I think you may have taken some of Luke’s comments the wrong way? He is an Anglican Minister fresh out of Bible college so I certainly hope he hasn’t been avoiding the discussion of Scripture :smiley:

I think I’ve had some of this discussion a few weeks ago on his blog. I believe he is saying that neither Universalists or non-Universalists can claim to have perfect insight to all Scripture. i.e. both sides come to the Bible with biases and have to qualify some passages.

Sorry to call your earlier response glib Bob, I think we got off on the wrong foot.

Luke, like Tom, I dig your photo, and I also appreciate your regret that we have gotten off on a bad foot. I am sorry that my frustration with a lack of engagement on Scripture has come across to you as an ad hominem attack.

As I said above, I totally respect your and Alex’s point that we all have bias’ and lack insight. I aso totally agree with you that a lot of our definitions of what is right are rooted in “sociological” influences. My central frustration is that I perceive you as raising views here that you find questionable. But when I say that the central puzzle for the tradition emphasized on this site focuses on what to make of relevant Scripture, you appear to me to consistently present reasons for why we should defer engaging the substance of the Biblical material. For me, that is the common ground that most of us share, and thus the most useful grist for insightful dialogue and understanding better why we may come to different conclusions. It has seemed to me that the alternative is essentially to declare or label others as wrong, which is what I fear most amounts to an ad-hominem approach.

Luke, I just saw your excellent interaction with Talbott, grappling with the implications of a key passage: Romans 5. This certainly annuls my characterization of your approach (based only on my interaction with you), and I gladly and apologetically rescind it. Blessings to you, Bob

Just wanted to say thanks to Bob Wilson, Total Victory, Grace and Jeff for offering some good thoughts on the OP (TV, I found your response especially helpful and thought-provoking; much appreciated!). I’m leaning towards understanding Jesus’ emotional distress and extreme aversion to his approaching death as being at least partially due to the supernatural foreknowledge he had of what exactly was going to happen long before it actually took place. That of which Christ had prophesied during the course of his earthly ministry (i.e., his being deserted by his closest friends, and then having to undergo the shame and physical pain of being flogged and then crucified) was about to be coming to pass, and all of the built-up negative anticipation which would have necessarily attended such foreknowledge finally came to a head and, for the moment, overwhelmed him.

Luke,

Could you explain why you think PS is necessary to fit into the “Evangelical” label?

Sonia

I just realized I’ve never gotten around to addressing Aaron’s question from the OP. :blush:

I’m at home now, and practically all my ref materials are at the office, so I don’t want to go much into it at the moment. Before I do that, though, I would want to see more of Mr. Platt’s actual argument–if that’s what someone like myself, who denies PS in its usual formats, is being asked to evaluate.

Is there a link somewhere for reading his argument from the book? Is it part of Amazon SITB material? Available at GoogleBooks? Can it be scanned into a pdf and added as an attachment somewhere on the thread? (Retyping it may be too much to ask for, but theoretically that could be done, too, I suppose…?)

I want to add in advance that Aaron, not being a trinitarian, wouldn’t fall under some of my normal categories of criticism for PS; there isn’t much point in my complaining about schisming the substance of the Persons, since he wasn’t ever professing that anyway, for example. I don’t know about Mr. Platt–but even if there was a theological inconsistency with him, Aaron (and other unitarians) wouldn’t see that as a problem against PS so much as a problem against ortho-trin theism (if PS is true).

I think (as I’ve said elsewhere in much more detail, as well as briefly just above) that even a unitarian (as a unitarian) has consistent theological reasons to believe more strongly in the unity of the Father and the son than what PS would otherwise imply. This may or may not be an issue for Mr. Platt’s argument–I don’t know enough details about it yet. I don’t know how much of a mix of metaphysical rationale and scriptural exegesis he’s using, and almost nothing about his line of approach–although from the little Aaron has reported my tenuous preliminary guess would be a metaphysical argument. But my impression about that could very easily be wrong.

Since I know exactly nothing yet about his exegetical rationale (if any), I can’t crit that yet pro or con.

I am a little surprised he denies or ignores the concept of Christ bearing the sins of the world (i.e. the wrath of the world), not the wrath of the Father, for our sake. But since I know almost nothing about his argument yet, I don’t yet know whether he doesn’t consider this at all or whether he dismisses it (and if so whether his reasons for doing so make sense). I’m pretty sure a unitarian could (at least in principle) believe along that line without any problem. (A modalist, too, for that matter. :slight_smile: ) Certainly an ortho-trin theist can do so; and this is the line I myself would take. But I can’t compare why I would, vs. whatever he’s doing, until I know more about what he’s doing and why.

um… I guess that’s about as much as I can say in advance without knowing more about his argument. :slight_smile: Any pointers to, or reproductions of, the text of his argument would be appreciated.

I don’t think I would have any problem accepting all of that as stated. I would go further into Christ already beginning to bear the sin of the world in Gethsemene, but if he (or He) was only anticipating this about to happen I’d be able to accept that instead, I suppose.

I will note that nothing in what I read there involves being abandoned by the Father in any way or degree; much less does anything in that paragraph involve suffering the wrath of the Father per se (in punishment or otherwise), either at that time or in the near future.

(Neither does anything written there exclude such a thing, to be fair. :slight_smile: )

Hi Jason,

You wrote:

Here’s an excerpt from chapter 2 of Platt’s book (which, I need to add, is not so much a book about doctrine but rather about challenging Western Christians to live more like Christ in a culture of comfort, convenience and consumerism):

The title of the chapter from which the above excerpt was taken is, I think, very misleading: “Discovering The Truth And Beauty Of The Gospel.” IMO, there is anything “beautiful” about the PS theory of the atonement; instead, I find it nearly as appalling as the doctrine of endless torment itself.

Concerning the “cup” that Christ prayed might be taken from him, I think Matt 20:22-23 and Mark 10:38-19 are more helpful in informing our understanding of what this figure means in the context of Matt 26:39 than the verses cited by Platt.

Let’s call the prodigal son Bob.

The father was cut to the heart by Bob’s sin. The father was angry also. He knew full-well the harm being done to the son he loved, even though it was Bob’s self-will that caused it.

But Bob comes home and the years pass. Bob himself becomes a father, and his son rebels against *him. * It’s Bob’s turn to be heart-broken and angry. He meets up with his old dad. “Now I know what you went through, all those years ago,” he says. “Remember when I first came home and you came running? I loved you then, but now I love you even more.”

When Christ was crucified, he tasted God’s pain. He experienced God’s rage at sin, God’s helplessness, God’s grief, God’s wise and patient hope. He drank the bitter cup. Jesus reflected the light of the Father’s broken heart into this dark world. He saw the tormented face of God, and died. We see the tormented face of Christ, and live.

Good question, I would say historically the Evangelicals are descendants of the Puritans who are descendants of the Reformers (with Pietism and Anabaptism playing a part as well). Doctrinally the key thread through these movements has been the doctrine of salvation, hence the rise of the global missions movement in the 1700s. Justification was the linchpin of the Reformation and PS was/is considered the way God delivers justification, although the scope of justification is broader and the implications of PS are more numerous then I’ve briefly described.