The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Animals and Universalism

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I know some (most?) universalists believe that fallen angelic beings, as part of God’s creation, will eventually be reconciled to God. But do you think that animals, as part of this same creation, will likewise be reconciled? Will animals then be resurrected? If Yeshua really came to reconcile all things, “whether things on earth or things in heaven”, than does it follow that all animals past and present will find their place on the New Earth too? (I can’t help but wonder how crowded the New Earth is going to be, if universalism is true. Maybe it’ll have to be made a bit bigger next time round.)

The gospel, by the time of Paul, had been “preached to every creature under heaven”. And likewise we are instructed to preach the gospel to all creatures (Mark 16:15). Are we to literally preach to all creatures, like Saint Francis reportedly did? Or am I being strangely literal on my reading? I haven’t really searched this out, and so I don’t know much about it (other than from within the beautiful fables of Saint Francis). But Macarthur, for example, said “all creatures” meant we should just preach to all people. I recently became a vegetarian myself, and I do this to live and proclaim the Kingdom to men (as an extension of non-violence and certainly not mandated by scripture), but I also consider this a method of preaching the presence of the Kingdom to all creatures. And as a quite harmless lunatic, having before been in the presence of suffering animals, I have admittedly “comforted” them with the good news audibly :blush: :laughing:

But anyway, as ministers of the reconciliation, I ask how do you relate to animals as a universalist (or just as a Christian)? Is there a unique way universalists would see other animals, compared to ECTers/CMers?

Godspeed,
Andrew

#2

I believe animals “have souls” and that animals “go to Heaven” and that they will also be resurrected.

#3

In Revelations, John writes, “Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing…”

If every creature ends up praising God, does this include a certain Australopithecus caveman called Gronk? Does it include the fleas living in Gronk’s fur? His tapeworms? All his bacteria? If God is love, does God love those fleas enough to die for them?

Maybe God will save the end-products of his creative work, but not all the drafts, false starts and prototypes (bad luck Gronk). If so, what makes me so sure I’m one of the end-products? On the evolutionary scale, I might well look like Gronk to some godlike human of the distant future.

Again, if God saves only the end-product, what happens to my past? I am not merely the person sitting here in this moment of time. I am the sum total of all my past moments as well. Does God save all the past me’s as well as the present me? How can that work?

Perhaps God will save the good and destroy the bad. But can everything be classified so cleanly? Is a tapeworm good or bad?

As you probably can tell, I really haven’t a clue, but I’m optimistic. I think it highly likely that the resurrection of Christ was an historical event. If it wasn’t, I nonetheless choose to believe the message of the myth. Our life in this world is merely a beginning. God is good. Though the world crucify us, God will raise us from the dead. We will ascend into heaven. We are caterpillars clinging to a leaf. Our cocoon is our coffin. We cannot begin to guess what it will be like to be a butterfly, weightless in the wind.

#4

The glorified Ebola might be a wonderful candidate for doing the exact opposite of what it does right now. Instead of rotting flesh right off the bone and turning it into puss and liquid…maybe it will be a wonderful symbiotic creature that enhances and enriches everything around it?

The glorified mosquito, who can say whether or not this blood sucking parasite will find itself no longer a nuisance but an asset?

Will the lion really lie down with the lamb, will the child really play beside the nest of a snake, will the bubonic plague really be a symbiotic, spiritual, glorified, helpful bacterium?

None can tell what God has in mind.

#5

If that was actually the case, then it makes it much more probable that they will be saved too :slight_smile:

#6

I totally understand you’re agnostic about it. But I just think if you can say this, even possibly, about some creation, you could also say this for all creation. Because all has become bad. It starts to dismantle the Colossian Christ-hymn a bit. If Christ doesn’t reconcile all created things, past and present, then doesn’t the universalist “proof-texts” seem a whole lot less… universal? :confused: What makes you/us think Christ will reconcile all men, past and present, if he can’t or won’t do it for the rest of His creation? Do you determine this from other verses?

#7

Hello WAAB
I admire your gentle spirit and I am attracted to pacifism and would hope that I will be re-united with my cuddly animal friends in the next life.
However, how do you see parasitic life being able to continue in the next life? **“By some estimates, parasites outnumber free-living species nearly four to one.” **
Have a look at this link and ask yourself if it is feasable that these parasites would be welcome in a perfect world (note particularly the evil Filarial worm:
neatorama.com/2006/08/21/six … parasites/

#8

Haha… Of course not! But I think if Christ can make the lion and viper tame, and can actually make man loving (he who is the greatest and most destructive of parasites to have ever lived on this cursed rock), then I’m sure Christ can also make the Filarial worm the cutest, likkle critter we ever did see :mrgreen: Although I wish I had not viewed his present condition whilst eating dinner :astonished: See, just like he, we’re not really welcome in the Kingdom without some major changes either. I mean, arguably God loves this little worm and even preserved his lineage on the Ark. After all, they do have life/chaiyah too. So what I’m wondering, will/did Christ really reconcile the whole of creation? Will He really be all in all things? Is all creation, past and present, ultimately welcome as universalists seem to insist? If not, why not? I know, I might be digging a pretty pointless and silly hole here. I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on it.

I don’t care so much out of sympathy for animals to tell you the truth. If I don’t lose sleep worrying about the eternal fate of men, my very own brothers and sisters (to my own tragic shame), I’m hardly going to start worrying about the fate of the lesser animals. I’m more interested as to whether universalism does or should deal with broader creation.

#9

a couple of my snakes dying this year (despite loads of effort on my part to save them) was a catalyst for me embracing universalism. i had begun to doubt the idea of animals “going to heaven”, but God gave me a weird peace, and reminded me that it says everything will be reconciled…
i started a thread about it, actually.
so yes i believe everything alive will be there…

viruses may not be living things, so may be exempt lol.

i’m looking forward to riding my triceratops round my little corner of heaven while having a chin wag with Jesus about the best way to incubate snake eggs LOL.

#10

I have never thought of this possibility :astonished: I am immensely excited about this :laughing:

#11

All I can say is, if my beloved cats don’t meet me there, I’ll probably strangle an angel. :laughing:

#12

I think animals may be elevated to a higher level of consciousness through the resurrection. We will, as we burst forth into our glorious bodies, have been elevated from mortal to immortal from human to divine, so I think our rising tide will bring the rest of the boats with it. Maybe animals will be like us now in their level of consciousness.

as an aside level of consciousness sounds very new-agey,but I can’t think of a better term

#13

I think there will be more land on the new earth. If it returns to a perfect state (like before the flood) then it will look like it did prior to the deep opening up. I think that will mean a lot more land mass. I also think all species will be made perfect, whatever that means for each one. We will no longer have the sinful, fleshly nature but, will awake in Christ likeness. Similarly, the animals will be without parasites, etc. It seems sin brought all kinds of “unnatural” things to the earth, weeds, parasites, etc. I believe animals will also be “perfected”, the wildness will be taken out of them, they won’t be plagued with parasites, etc. After watching my children deal with the death of their beloved pets, I can’t imagine God doesn’t care about and love His creation, not only as much but, more than they do. That is why I love the EU idea. I think, If I love this person, who didn’t really care about following God and, if I can see at least some good in them and something worth “saving” surely, God does. This is the same thing I have seen in my children concerning their animals. I also think it is important to realize if we understand these things and the need to be aware of the truth of the importance of animals to God (compared to the idea of the survival of the fittest/throw away species) then we also need to realize the importance of unborn human infants. It seems we understand the importance of saving baby whales and caring for all of God’s creation but, forget that infants are created in the womb by this same God who we understand cares for all things. I actually know people, for whom I’m thankful, that love, care for and protect animals (even animals in the womb), yet they still think it acceptable to abort an unborn human baby. I think, to be reasonable we need to protect all creatures, born and unborn when within our power to do so.

#14

i’ve often thought this…God put us over the animals, in a sense, and He elevates us…so in turn we elevate the other creatures. i also can see an analogy for EU in the way that i look after and cherish a pet, even when it’s not happy about it… God looks after us the same way.

also, i have a feeling we’ll not be confined to one planet in the new kingdom…there’s a vast universe to explore!

#15

I love that thought! Thank you for sharing it!

#16

I tend to interpret the “New Jerusalem” coming down out of Heaven as a symbolic sort of ‘taste’ or ‘glimpse’ into what will actually be a whole universe full of cities and towns and villages and palaces and gardens and fields and rivers all over the infinitely expanding creative potential, build and expressed after that heavenly style, culture, and architecture.

I believe animals, even newly created ones, will be featured. Like unicorns (don’t judge me, unicorns are manly!) and I also believe that families will be born, that there will be children, and marriage (as a contractual system of legal vows) will be replaced with a true-love romances, eternal-life-lasting, between couples, united in heart not in contract.

I believe it will be Life (as opposed to what the traditional church likes to say), and more abundantly, even and certainly for animals.

#17

i like this vision! :smiley:

#18

So its not really a Filarial worm anymore at all - its something completely different. So Christ isn’t really reconciling the Filarial worm to Himself (as its very essence is parasitic), He’s completely destroying its very essence and making an entirely new creature.

P.S. Of course, as you well know, humankind is not a parasite in any literal sense and so your statement betrays the weakness of your position. You seem to have a very low opinion of those for whose sins Christ died.

#19

Are we not new creatures in Christ, who makes all things new? Even the formerly filarial worm - who is now a new creature made new?

#20

So am I now somebody else? and is the old ‘me’ annihilated? -So much for universalism - it seems God is in the extermination business.
Truth is, God will make us perfect human beings in His own image. The concept of a perfected Filarial worm is one hellish concept.
Personally, I think we mustn’t take the scriptural language too literally. There must be an essence of ‘me’ that remains whereas I’m not so sure about a worm that is designed (or has evolved) to feed off the life-force of other sentient beings.