The following continues answering the claims of endless annihilation theology from this thread:
12There the doers of iniquity have fallen;
They have been thrust down and cannot rise.
Rise from what?
It doesn’t say they “will not rise” but they are not able to rise. It doesn’t say that that God is unable to make them rise. Next:
Not in this (NASB) version:
28The hope of the righteous is gladness,
But the expectation of the wicked perishes.
29 The way of the LORD is a stronghold to the upright,
But ruin to the workers of iniquity.
30 The righteous will never be shaken,
But the wicked will not dwell in the land.
31 The mouth of the righteous flows with wisdom,
But the perverted tongue will be cut out.
Scarcely have they been planted, Scarcely have they been sown, Scarcely has their stock taken root in the earth, But He merely blows on them, and they wither, And the storm carries them away like stubble. (NASB)
Something that still exists is not even annihilated, let alone endlessly annihilated. Next:
For those blessed by Him will inherit the land, But those cursed by Him will be cut off. (NASB)
There’s no endless annihilation there either. Next:
Who isn’t silent in the grave? Next:
Yes, i understand those were all lame failed attempts to support endless annihilation.
“10, 11. shall not be—literally, “is not”—is not to be found.”
“Shall not be, to wit, in the land of the living. He shall be dead and gone, as this phrase is commonly taken.”
“It shall not be, i.e. his place, and estate, and glory shall be gone…”
“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be,… Not that they shall be annihilated or reduced to nothing, because nonentities have no place nor being any where; when they die they shall lift up their eyes in hell; their bodies will rise again at the last day; they shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ…but they shall be no more in the world, and in the same flourishing and prosperous circumstances they were…”
It is not true that in a “little while” the wicked would be endlessly annihilated. In much longer than “a little while”, in fact thousands of years later for those of that time, they will be raised back to life. Next:
You, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, Awake to punish all the nations; Do not be gracious to any who are treacherous in iniquity. Selah. (NASB)
And Thou, Jehovah, God of Hosts, God of Israel, Awake to inspect all the nations. Favour not any treacherous dealers of iniquity. Selah. (YLT)
David prays that God will not be gracious to certain people. Will God listen to him? Love Omnipotent is able to convert those who persist in wickedness such as He did with Saul of Tarsus when He supernaturally blinded him & spoke to him on the road to Damascus. God their Saviour may also punish certain wicked people for their own good, that they may repent & be saved. Rather than being “gracious” to them or showing them “favour” (Psa.59:5).
Psalm 59:5 says nothing about anyone being endlessly annihilated. Next:
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psa.69:28)
This says nothing about anyone being endlessly annihilated.
David prays again against his enemies. Will God answer him? God in the flesh said “love your enemies”. Next:
David’s ill wish or prayer against his enemies. Will God answer him?
May burning coals fall upon them; May they be cast into the fire, Into deep pits from which they cannot rise. (Psa.140:10)
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. (Rom.12:20)
Psalm 140:10 says nothing about anyone being endlessly annihilated. Next:
They can’t deliver themselves. But Love Omnipotent can deliver them. With Him all is possible.
Isa.47:14 says nothing about anyone being endlessly annihilated. Next:
Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people. (Acts 3:23)
21whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.
23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’
The Greek word for “cut off” above is exolethreuó (Strongs # 1842). In Exodus 31:14 it occurs with the meaning of death. Death is not endless annihilation.
Spiros Zhodiates says the “word and its syn. never mean extinction, but a change of one’s state involving retribution or punishment”
(The Complete Word Study Dictionary", p.605).
There is no endless annihilation spoken of in Acts 3:23.
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Repay double, not infinitey:
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).
This is Bildad talking, not God. Bildad says enemies will be clothed in shame, not endless annihilation:
Your enemies will be clothed in shame, and the tents of the wicked will be no more. (Job 8:22)
Those in shame are not annihilated, but living. Bildad says the tents of the wicked, not the wicked themselves, will be no more.
“This opinion the friends of Job maintain all along, and by this they urge him to forsake his sins, repent, and return to God.”
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
This says the wicked shall be silent in darkness, not they shall get endless annihilation.
"For the wicked is reserved for the day of calamity; They will be led forth at the day of fury. (NASB)
This tells us about one day, not endless or final destiny.
5"Behold, God is mighty but does not despise any; He is mighty in strength of understanding. 6"He does not keep the wicked alive, But gives justice to the afflicted.
God did not keep Sodom alive. Does that mean they are annihilated forever? No.
50 more lame ones that don’t support endless annihilation?
That reminds me of these 600 that allegedly “expound on the truth of the Reconciliation of All”:
Obviously dead corpses are silent & don’t praise God. That applies to both saints & sinners.
Are you now arguing that everyone who dies is annihilated forever?
18"For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness. 19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
Those corpses in “death” do not praise God, but “the living” give thanks to Him.
This context says nothing about endless annihilation.
This passage has many questions, but no answers:
10 Will You perform wonders for the dead? Will the departed spirits rise and praise You? Selah. 11 Will Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave, Your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Will Your wonders be made known in the darkness? And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
“Then the house of Jacob will be a fire And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau will be as stubble. And they will set them on fire and consume them, So that there will be no survivor of the house of Esau,” For the LORD has spoken.
This is speaking of earthly punishment in this life, not final destiny. I suggest you read some commentaries here: biblehub.com/commentaries/obadiah/
A number of Early Church Fathers were universalists, including Origen who was a Greek scholar, Greek being his native language.
You & others in this thread have posted dozens of verses allegedly supporting endless annihilation, but i have shown that none of them do. Nor is there a single verse in Scripture to support such a theory.
Even your own comments don’t support endless annihilation.
Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people. (Acts 3:23)
21whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.
23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’
The Greek word for “cut off” above is exolethreuó (Strongs # 1842). In Exodus 31:14 it occurs with the meaning of death. Death is not endless annihilation.
Spiros Zhodiates says the “word and its syn. never mean extinction, but a change of one’s state involving retribution or punishment” (The Complete Word Study Dictionary", p.605).
There is no endless annihilation spoken of in Acts 3:23.
Vengeance is vengeance, not endless annihilation. Here is vengeance:
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
That says repay double, not infinitey or endlessly.
Repayment (vengeance) is harmonious with salvation and with universal reconciliation:
“Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.” (Micah 7:9)
"And what about judgment? “In the first judgment recorded in Scripture, mercy goes hand in hand. If Adam is to die, mercy follows; the serpent’s head is to be bruised (Gen 3:15). So, too, even the vengeance of eternal fire on Sodom ends in her restoration (Jude 7, Ezek 16:53-55). We thus understand the striking juxtaposition of mercy and judgment in God’s revelation of himself to Moses (Exod 34:6-7)…[f]ew more beautiful illustrations of the view I am urging can be found than that afforded by the story of Achan, stoned by a terrible judgment…in the Valley of Achor (Josh 7:24-25); for if we turn to Hosea 2:15 we shall find this promise, ‘I will give her the Valley of Achor for a door of hope’ – words pregnant with suggestion.”
“The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received ‘double for all her sins’ (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, ‘Zion shall be redeemed with judgment’ (Isa 1:27)…this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible…So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, ‘You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.’”
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (CLV)
And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life. (Ro)
“And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life.” (ED)
“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.” (YLT)
The “eternal” (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago. It was not eternal:
Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
"…Likewise, the Presbyterian Bible scholar, M. R. Vincent, in his extensive note on aiõn/aiõnios states: “Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.” "
Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:
“It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct.” earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book45.html
If Christ meant “endless” punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos (“endless”; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words “no end” as in Lk1:33b: “And of His kingdom there will be no end”? The answer seems obvious.
“In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16).”
“…in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127).” journalofanalytictheology.com/ja … 30418a/271
Earlier in the book of Matthew the same author wrote:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b …my people Israel.
Judgement is judgement, not endless annihilation. Judgement is a good thing:
“My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.” (Isa.26:9)
That says cast into the LOF, not cast into endless annihilation.
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).
What makes you - imagine - any endless annihilation there?
What makes you - imagine - any endless annihilation there? Those who are blotted out of life, or killed, God makes alive again:
"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand. (Deut.33:29)
A day of wrath is a day of wrath, not endless annihilation:
“For the wicked is reserved for the day of calamity; They will be led forth at the day of fury.” (NASB)
One can suffer the Lord’s wrath & be saved:
“Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.” (Micah 7:9)
all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out (Jn.5:28-29)
New American Standard Bible
"While he is carried to the grave, Men will keep watch over his tomb. (Job 21:31)
“The last enemy that shall be abolished is death” (vs. 26).
Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All “in” all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).
“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”
“Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.” (Micah 7:9)
He preserved not the life of wicked Pharoah, but set His afflicted people (Israel) free. Yet Pharoah is not annihilated forever, but will be raised (Jn.5:28-29) & saved (1 Cor.15:22-28).
“Ab. Ezra interprets it, The years of the wicked shall be shortened.” e.g. Pharoah, Sodom, the world in Noah’s day, etc
“Verse 6. - He preserveth not the life of the wicked. There is no special providence over the life of the wicked, as Job had supposed, or pretended to suppose (Job 21:7; comp. Job 12:6). On the contrary, God “overturneth” wicked men “in the night, so that they are destroyed; he striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others” (Job 34:25, 26).”
New American Standard Bible
"Beware that wrath does not entice you to scoffing; And do not let the greatness of the ransom turn you aside.
New International Version
Be careful that no one entices you by riches; do not let a large bribe turn you aside.
They are - already - like - stubble & have been - already - burned, yet live:
New American Standard Bible
"Behold, they have become like stubble, Fire burns them; They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame; There will be no coal to warm by Nor a fire to sit before!
English Standard Version
Behold, they are like stubble; the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!
Douay-Rheims Bible
Behold they are as stubble, fire hath burnt them, they shall not deliver them- selves from the power of the dames: there are no coals wherewith they may be warmed, nor fire, that they may sit thereat.
Young’s Literal Translation
Lo, they have been as stubble! Fire hath burned them, They deliver not themselves from the power of the flame, There is not a coal to warm them, a light to sit before it.
“…they shall be no more able to stand before the fire of divine wrath, or before the judgments of God, by the hands of the Medes and Persians, than stubble can stand before a consuming fire”.
Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people’s souls. It doesn’t even mention the word “soul”, let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the “Holy Spirit and fire” (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a “generation of vipers” (v.7).
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.
All sinners are wicked until they are saved. When all sinners are saved, then there will be no more wicked. All will be “in the assembly of the righteous”.
The - way - of the wicked shall perish, i.e. his sinful ways, his wickedness. Then he will be saved.
Psalm 72
11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
New International Version
See how the evildoers lie fallen-- thrown down, not able to rise!
New American Standard Bible
There the doers of iniquity have fallen; They have been thrust down and cannot rise.
King James Bible
There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.
Rise from what?
It doesn’t say they “will not rise” but they are not able to rise. It doesn’t say that that God is unable to make them rise.
Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All “in” all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).
“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”
Cut off, but not forever. Cut off when the dead saints are raised & they are left dead. Until their resurrection. Cut off when cast into the lake of fire, the second death, but not forever. Only till death is abolished & God becomes all in all (1 Cor.15:22-28, etc).
Or the verse merely refers to their “posterity” (compare the LXX & the Vulgate):
But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off. (Psa.37:38, NASB)
posterity: the descendants of a person.
“God offered Abraham a posterity like the stars of heaven”
“Posterity” could also be translated as “end” or even “future.” Even as “future,” their offspring could be intended (cf. Prov 24:20)".
Strongs Hebrew 8045, shamad, “destroyed”…e.g. as in death in this mortal life, as in Genesis 34:30:
Then Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, “You have brought trouble on me by making me obnoxious to the Canaanites and Perizzites, the people living in this land. We are few in number, and if they join forces against me and attack me, I and my household will be destroyed.[8045]” (Gen.34:30)
Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God…Can any stay rebellious in “hell?”
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return…How can one return from “destruction?”
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts…“All” hearts, including men like “Hitler?”
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him…“All” nations!
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God…Are you catching on?
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God…That sounds wondrous.
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things…I wish we would believe that.
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him…For what purpose?
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him…Praise His name!
Ps 145:9 He is good to all…Including your worst enemies.
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works…Let’s start believing that.
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall…Who hasn’t fallen in sin?
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him…For “eternal torment?”
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him…If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?
2 Pet.2:6 & many others you posted before & i already answered them. I’m still awaiting your responses. As for 2 Pet.2:9:
Regarding the Greek word for “destruction”:
"684 /apoleia (“perdition”) does not imply “annihilation” (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apollymi, “cut off”) but instead “loss of well-being” rather than being (Vine’s Expository Dictionary)
Also the verse speaks of a “day” of judgement & destruction, not endless destruction.
Jesus’ body was destroyed. Was it lost forever? No.
1 Cor.15:28 And when allthings shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The LXX Hebrew scholars who translated NETSACH in the Septuagint rendered it AION[165] in the Greek OT, meaning literally an “age” or “eon” (The Apostolic Bible Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear, p.794). This Greek-English interlinear says “unto the eon he shall not see light”. The Greek OT was the Scriptures most often quoted in the NT & used by the early church.
Here it is translated “permanence”:
Psa.49:19 Yet he shall come unto the generation of his fathers; Unto permanence, they shall not see light. (CLV)
permanently, “in a way that lasts or remains unchanged indefinitely”
"the state or quality of lasting or remaining unchanged indefinitely. “the clarity and permanence of the dyes” "
Here netsach is used of finite duration that had already ended & is translated “perpetually”:
Amos 1:11 Thus, saith Yahweh, Because of three transgressions of Edom, and because of four, will I not turn it back,—Because he pursued, with the sword, his brother, and stifled his compassions, and his anger tare in pieces evermore, and, his indignation, kept watch perpetually[5331]
There is no endless punishment in Psa.49:19.
…Psalm 86:9
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
Psalm 22:27-28
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psalm 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
Psalm 145:9-10
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.
Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.
Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.
Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).
Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.
Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”
If the ungodly are not saved/delivered from death, & they are dead & in their graves, then they won’t “appear” anywhere. Not in this world, anyway (except in their graves), at least until their resurrection.
Peter’s quote is from Prov.11:31 LXX, which in context refers to this earthly life, not final destiny or postmortem consequences:
30 Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life; but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.
31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? https://biblehub.com/sep/proverbs/11.htm
18 and if the just one scarcely is safe, the impious one and sinner where will appear? (DG)
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (NIV)
If it is hard/difficult for the righteous to be saved, how much harder/more difficult will it be for the ungodly to be saved. That doesn’t prove the ungodly can’t be saved.
Saved from what? Saved from endless tortures or endless annihilation? Or saved from going to be tormented in Hades or the LOF? And, then, being tormented only until they find salvation in Christ their Lord, “the Savior of the world” (Jn.4:42).
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
Peter asks these questions. Does he know the answer to them? Does he tell us?
Saved from what? Going to Hades? The lake of fire? Then being saved when the lake of fire (the 2nd death) is abolished when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes All “in all” (v.28), even all who were in Adam (v.22).
Compare from the same chapter of 1 Pet.4:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
and from 1 Pet 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
and here Peter speaks again:
Acts 3:21 whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of restoration of all, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.
And Paul:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life’s justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between “the many” who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
“He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.” (Isa.53:11).
For how “many” (not few) did He “bear their iniquities”? All.
Things that are “cast into fire” are not annihilated, but continue to exist. Fire did not annihilate the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31).
According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
Love will conquer all.
As someone said:
“annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!”
Endless infinite punishment for finite sins of a finite brief lifetime is not just, righteous & loving.
Cut off, not annihilated for eternity or tortured forever:
Rom.11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Rom.11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory – into the eons. Amen.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life’s justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food…tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.
Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people’s souls. It doesn’t even mention the word “soul”, let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the “Holy Spirit and fire” (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a “generation of vipers” (v.7). So Matthew 3 teaches that those burned up with fire that is not extinguished shall be saved.
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
John 3:17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
John 4:42 Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world."
John 12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.
This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent’s - divine will - in sending His Son:
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)
There we see God’s reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the “divine will”:
“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Taking away the world’s sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.
The Greek word for “end” is the same the NASB translates “outcome” (Rom.6:21) of a way of life. So re Heb.6:8 the outcome of their way of living is to go to the fire of Hades and/or the lake of fire. Thereafter they will be saved. The burning is to remove the nasty things - thorns & briers - from the land so that the land is purified & becomes useful for growth of good things.
“The practice of burning fields has been around for a very long time–pretty much since the beginning of agriculture. And it’s always had one purpose: to clear out the weeds and thistles and thorns and prepare the field to accept good seed and yield good crops. In other words, if just tilling the field didn’t work, burning it was the next step, not as a sign that the field would never be any good and was to be abandoned, but in order to make it into a good field. I find it interesting, then, that of all the illustrations the author could have used to demonstrate the harsh judgment coming to apostates, he used one that, particularly to a society familiar with the practice, was redemptive, through and through.”
“…land itself is not burned but the thorns and thistles that grow upon it are burned. Sometimes people say that land is burned, but that is a manner of speaking. They mean that the land is burnt OVER. That is, the unwanted growth on it is burned up.”
“I live in FARM LAND country. And you know what they do here? They BURN the fields/ground/LAND. Do you want to know why? Because it’s GOOD to burn the LAND. I just burned my Buffalo Grass yard last week too, and you know what was left? THE LAND. Didn’t hurt my ‘damned’ land one bit. It purifies the dead grass/works, and that enhances the spring growth to be better. HELLO out there, my ‘land’ didn’t go to Hell, just the weeds and dead grass was destroyed.”
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
From the first 2 chapters of Hebrews:
Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all
Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty
Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
1 Pet.4:17b what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (NASB, likewise NIV, ESV, BSB, BLB, NAS, etc).
Answer: they go to Hades &/or the lake of fire until they are saved.
What “judgement” was about to “begin at the house of God” (1 Pet.4:17)? 70 AD when the Romans came & the Christians lives were “saved” by fleeing from Jerusalem?
“The judgment here spoken of is thought by many commentators to signify the particular distress which was to happen before Jerusalem should be utterly destroyed.”
“…Whoever compares the accounts in the Scriptures, or ancient fathers, concerning the persecutions which befell the Christians about this time, with the sufferings of the Jews, as related by Josephus, will easily see that the distress only began with the Christians, and was light compared with what afterward fell upon the Jews: for when Jerusalem was destroyed, the Christians escaped with their lives, and enjoyed more peace and tranquillity than they had done before.” https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/4-17.htm
Saved from what? Death at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD? Hades where the rich man went? The lake of fire?
18 and if the just one scarcely is safe, the impious one and sinner where will appear? (DG)
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (NIV)
If it is hard/difficult (NIV) for the righteous to be saved, how much harder/more difficult will it be for the ungodly to be saved. That doesn’t prove the ungodly can’t be saved. In fact they won’t be saved from Hades & the lake of fire, if they persist in rebellion. But even those who go to the lake of fire will eventually be saved.
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (NIV)
Saved from what? Saved from endless tortures or endless annihilation? Or saved from going to be tormented in Hades or the LOF? And, then, being tormented only until they find salvation in Christ their Lord, “the Savior of the world” (Jn.4:42).
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
Peter asks these questions. Does he know the answer to them? Does he tell us?
Saved from what? Going to Hades? The lake of fire? Then being saved when the lake of fire (the 2nd death) is abolished when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes All “in all” (v.28), even all who were in Adam (v.22).
Compare from the same chapter of 1 Pet.4:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
and from 1 Pet 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
and here Peter speaks again:
Acts 3:21 whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of restoration of all, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.
And Paul:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life’s justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between “the many” who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
“He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.” (Isa.53:11).
For how “many” (not few) did He “bear their iniquities”? All.
[QUOTE=“he-man, post: 73490886, member: 271484”]Wrong, it does say “2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
[/QUOTE]
Do you have a point or just like to post Scriptures without any comment & leave it to others to guess what your point is?
As usual & always another of your “proof texts” bites the dust:
That doesn’t say they SHALL (future tense) never be able to know the truth.
Compare 1 Tim.2:4, Love Omnipotent desires/wills ALL come to the knowledge of the truth. Why say that if there are some who shall never attain to the truth?
Why will/desire something that will not happen, that is impossible for even Love Omnipotent to correct?
Premise 1: God desires all be saved… 1 Timothy 2:4: “[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).
Conclusion: All will be saved
1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also. (NASB)
What will they not “make further progess” (v.9) in? Their “folly” (v.9) in deceiving others “just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly” (v.9).
Will they be eventually saved? Here’s the answer:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life’s justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom.11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Rom.11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory – into the eons. Amen.
Col.1:16 For by Him ALL was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ALL to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)
2 Cor.5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died.
2 Cor.5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Rev. 15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed."
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev. 21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.”
Also the English word “destroy” has various meanings. It need not mean endless annihilation. For example, a car that is destroyed can be repaired. A King whose soul is destroyed so much that he eats grass like an animal for 7 years can be restored (see Daniel, OT, Bible). An alcoholic who destroys his health, relationships & mind(soul) with booze can be restored to health, restored in his relationships with others & restored to a sound mind(soul).
So when annihilationists simply quote that verse & make the unsupported, unproven & unwarranted - assumption - about it & the word “destroyed”, that it supports their view, they do not have a “proof text” for their viewpoint, but merely a human opinion. Not a thus sayeth the Lord.
Just because those who were destroyed(different Greek word) in Sodom were reduced to ashes does not prove that those destroyed in the lake of fire will also be reduced to ashes.
And since Sodom will be restored again, then what’s to say those in the lake of fire will not be restored again, even if their entire soul and body were reduced to ashes?
Also can a disembodied non material soul be reduced to ashes?
Moreover, what of their human spirit, even if the body & soul could become ashes?
And why would Love Omnipotent want to resort to endless annihilation? It makes no sense.
The Bible does - not - tell us that those in the lake of fire are nonexistent, but that they are to be tormented alive into the ages of the ages (Rev.14:11; 20:10).
If Love Omnipotent was going to burn & torture them alive “into the ages of the ages” and thereafter annihilate them & never bring them back, that would be sadistic like the endless tortures dogma.
If the Saviour of ALL believed they would cease to exist for endless ages, He had the language to make that clear. If that was His view then why would He, instead, speak of them being tormented?
Love Omnipotent is not going to do an endless Hitler thing on the beings He created. That would be to His shame, not His glory.
Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)
Indeed Love Omnipotent is a fire. What is He as Fire going to consume:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
Evidently Love Omnipotent wants to save all:
"Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: “[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”)
Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: “So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”)
Conclusion: All will be saved."
If Love Omnipotent doesn’t save all is it because He can’t or doesn’t want to?
So His patience has run out after a few attempts & a few years or decades? He has no choice but to endlessly terminate His created children? How will that glorify Him?
Look what King David did after all the “opportunity” given him. He commited premeditated adultery & murder.
Look what Thomas did after all the “opportunity” given him. He refused to believe in Jesus’ resurrection or the testimony of His disciples who had seen Him. He demanded to see Him & put His hands inside Him before He would ever believe. Sounds like a lot of atheists who never got anywhere near the “opportunities” Thomas got in being with Jesus for years.
Then there’s the “worst of sinners” ever, Saul who became Paul the greatest apostle, who was formerly a serial killer of Christians.
They certainly matter. Just not in the monstrous horror myth story way many think.
How were they to “possess their souls” (Lk.21:19)? Didn’t they already possesss them?
“But by your perseverance you shall possess your souls.” (Lk.21:19)
Better to be patiently persevering in following Christ & thereby take possession of your soul. Otherwise tormenting insane demonic spirits may take “possession” of it instead.
King Neb in Daniel ate grass like an animal for 7 years. It could be said he wasn’t “possessing his soul”, but had lost it & his soul had been destroyed (i.e. ruined). Yet after those 7 years the Saviour of all restored His soul from that destruction. He reversed the destruction & destroyed it. He got his soul back & possessed it again.
Some versions say “lives” instead of “souls” (Lk.21:19).
The NASB often translates the Greek word - psuché - as “life”:
“heart (2), heartily (1), life (36), lives (7), mind (1), minds (1), person (1), persons (3), soul (33), souls (14), suspense* (1), thing (1).”
“This passage may be thus translated: By persevering in bearing these trials you “will” save your lives, or you will be safe…” (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
You should want to avoid being tormented “into the ages of the ages” (Rev.14:11; cf 20:10). Or being given over to tormenting demons (Mt.18:34-35), as opposed to having a clear peace filled conscience.
You should want to do what’s right for the sake of others. Because it’s right, Jesus first loved you, you know it & therefore love others.
That’s like asking, “why shouldn’t i steal? When i get caught & go to prison where i get gang raped, what will it matter in the long run? I’ll be free again in a while.”