Are all our sins—past, present, and future—already forgiven?

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:24am

Paidion:

Maintenanceman:

How dare you dilute the redeeming blood of Christ, To think that somehow we have to do something to make Christ’s sacrifice valid, but I go on to say that there is only one righteousness, yes he who does right, and that is Christ.

At first, I thought you were kidding when I saw the emoticon of embarrassment. But in considering your final words, I now think you were serious, and so I will take it as such.

How dare you dilute the redeeming blood of Christ, To think that somehow we have to do something to make Christ’s sacrifice valid…

Make Christ’s sacrifice valid? Valid for what? Is the purpose of his sacrifice to provide a fire escape from hell (as many fundamentalists and evangelicals believe)? Or is the purpose to deliver us (or save us) from sin? (as the angel announced to Joseph).

Salvation from sin is a process, as the following verses indicate:
Acts 2:47 … And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing

I believe it to be a life-long process that will some day be complete:
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

We must work together with God in order to be consistently righteous. If we expect God to make us righteous apart from our coöperation with Him, we deceive ourselves, and any attempt to receive the grace of God will be in vain:
2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

God won’t make us righteous without our coöperation. He never forces Himself on anyone. And we cannot be consistently righteous except through the death and resurrection of Christ. So how does “working together with him,” in your mind “dilute the redeeming blood of Christ”?

…but I go on to say that there is only one righteousness, yes he who does right, and that is Christ.

You are saying that the passage indicates that the one who does right is Christ alone?
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7 RSV)
If the first “he” refers to Christ, then to whom does the second “he” refer? It’s clear from the context, that John is writing about people in general and not about Christ in particular:
No one who remains in him continues to sin; no one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil… By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother.

I have quoted passages that give the reason for Christ’s death many times. And I continue to do so, until the real reason for his death is accepted:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

To live for him alone… to have him as Lord… to be redeemed from iniquity, purified, and continually be zealous for good deeds, is a life-long process. Alone God won’t do it for us. Alone we cannot do it. But working together with Him, it will be accomplished!

First of all, I said what I said in the way I stated it to make a point. Christ did indeed take away our sin at the cross, and I will believe this and stand by it. And the problem is, as I see it, is that your insistence about our necessity to be repentant is contrary to the love of God and His willingness to do what had to be done to eradicate the sin condition. You say that the salvation process is a life long process, and I can empathize with your position, but I do not agree with it.

You said:

This is the very mentality that has permeated throughout human history, that somehow the legalism of the old testament is still in effect. [size=150]WE NEED TO DO OUR PART OR CHRIST"S DEATH MEANS NOTHING.[/size]It is a sad and dangerous path that continues in your vein of thought. Having said that, there is much wisdom in the understanding that our lives, and the lives around us, will be changed when we realize what Christ has accomplished, both in our personal lives and in humanity in general. Our repentance comes from that understanding, from that work of grace in our life, and thus Christ is totally glorified and we have realized we are a new creation.

We can exchange proof text’s all day but as Bob Wilson, one for the main founders of this very site has pointed out in his papers he has posted here evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=58 that we can always look at things in many different ways. Good luck on your position, but I will maintain the total, actual, unconditional saving work of Christ.

Peace.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · March 9, 2018, 3:24am

I remember having the same conversation - in another thread.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4161e9231033aa335aca697a3ef0c4e2?convert_to_webp=true

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:24am

Eaglesway · March 9, 2018, 3:25am

When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness everyone who focused on it was healed of the serpent sting. “Looking unto Jesus the Author and the Finisher of our faith.”

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. See the crucified Christ and be raised to newness of life- all made new in love, out of which righteousness flows.

He is not (imo) the Author in the sense of beliefs written down for us . He is the Author in that once the incorruptible seed of the Logos is planted in our hearts it is able to save our souls. It is the Life that comes out of that seed like a Vine. Like a Fountain or a Well.

For through the Law I died to the Law so that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing.”…

The binding of A New Life in Christ with our heart begins at conception… “The word implanted which is able to save your soul”.

The salvation of the soul is not(as we all kno, and Paidon recently posted) about escaping “hell”. It is about being transformed into the image of Christ, from within, by grace, working through faith, which works by love". “Be saved from this perverse generation”(Acts 2:40)

“If your eye is single your whole body is full of light”. The eye is the light of the soul.

All we have to do is focus. Look into the right mirrors. Remember we see a dead man(James mirror) and a livng man(pauls mirror 2 Cor 3:16-18)

If we focus on Him, the single eye becomes the source of the well of life, light and love- which is righteousness…having nothing to do anymore with the law. It is Jesus inside, the radiance of the Father’s glory radiating, the exact representation of His nature transforming from the heart out.

“A double minded man is unstable in all his ways, let not that man think he will receive anything from the Lord”

Two wells, two tongues, two minds- Babylon/Babel = “confusion by mixture” = wood hay and stubble. Unrighteousness masquerading as righteousness.

The righteousness of Christ flows through fellowship with Him, not by law(because the dead man was under law) but through love, light and life…deposited in the believer because of his faith being reckoned unto him as righteousness, WHICH ALLOWS THE SEED TO BE PLANTED, which becomes the well, the vine, the leaven, the fountain, the source. Seeing Christ crucified as the seed/core/hope and Christ raised as the promise of restoration/resurrection.

A believer is not righteous because he loves so much as the love of Christ in Him produces love- “partakers of the divine nature.”

Planted in death, raised in newness of life, which-in my opinion, is the only all encompassing definition of righteousness. So I have died. Christ lives in me. The life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God- the seed, the Logos, the word implanted- Christ in me, the hope of glory(the mystery). If I abide in the vine righteousness is the sap of the leaves and the fruit. If I do not abide I wither as a branch and am cut-off and gathered up and men and thrown into the fire(wood hay stubble-garbage). Carried back to Egypt. Placed again under servitude(trampled under the feet of men)

Unless you return to your first love I will remove your Lampstand from its place.

Faith alone has its unshakable reward, all received in the incorruptible seed…

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

But the ground that receives it determines the fruit that comes of it, some 30, some 60, some 100-fold…

5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.(James’ mirror) 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

An abundant entrance is that newness of life that is the manifestation of the kingdom of God. Gold silver and precious stone.

Eaglesway · March 9, 2018, 3:25am

Sowing and reaping and righteousness.

If we sow to the Spirit we reap life.

If we sow to the flesh we reap corruption.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

The righteousness of God is planted in us when we see Christ crucified(Savior) and believe He is the resurrected (Lord).

JESUS MUST BE SAVIOR BEFORE HE IS LORD(Phil 2)

Imputed righteousness because we are one blood “in Christ”.

Imparted righteousness “Christ lives in me.”

“the mystery of the gospel” is “Christ in you the hope of glory” (MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS)

If we sow to the flesh we do not lose imputed righteousness, we are still “one blood”, but we reap corruption, sort of like the prodigal son, who was his Father’s beloved son even as he departed towards debauchery.

When He came to His senses he was immediately and joyfully restored to the “privileges of the inheritance”. He had squandered the benefits of the inheritance until he was in servitude as one who had never been an inheritor.

“He who lacks these qualities has forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins”

“A wise slave will receive an inheritance over a foolish son”(proverbs somewhere)

“A son while he is a child, is no different than a slave and is kept under tutors until the appointed time” (Galatians somewhere)

One could say the prodigal, who did not abide in the Vine, withered as a branch and was cut off. The salt had lost its savor and was “cast out and trodden under the feet of men”.

His "imparted righteousness " was hidden under a bushel.

His imputed righteousness awaited his his coming to his senses and was manifest before he had time to do anything, like function as a responsible son- because the Father sees the secrets of the heart and recognized his broken and contrite heart.

“Purge me with hyssop and I will be clean, wash me and I will be whiter than snow”

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

  13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
        And sinners will be converted to You.

An immature(babe/carnal) believer is an inheritor but is not capable of understanding the gifts or responsibilities of the inheritance as paul says, in 1 Cor 3 a carnal believer walks as if he were a mere(unregenerated) man. Born of the spirit, but walking by the natural perceptions and subject to deception and imprisonment- but still of the one blood “Receive a brother who is weak in the faith but not unto doubtful disputations”- or in other words, love him but don’t argue with him because the carnal mind is enmity towards God and cannot receive the things of God- it is foolishness to them.

But they are still of the one blood- inheritors being kept under tutors(law bound thoughts, vain imaginations) until Christ “is formed” in them again.

“My children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you.”

Hermano · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

Here is a short message I received today that blessed me, and enhances this discussion:

Romans 4:7–8 *“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
*
Some people think that if they were more “right” with God, then He would hear their prayers. For example, they sometimes believe that if they had not quarreled with their wives or had those bad thoughts earlier in the day, then God would answer their prayers.

God is not like that. He wants you to know beyond any doubt that you can always come to His throne of grace with boldness and have every confidence that you will receive His mercy and grace. (Hebrews 4:16) You see, because of Jesus’ finished work on the cross, you are already right with God. You don’t need to do anything to make yourself more right with God.

In fact, by faith in Jesus, you have received the righteousness of God Himself! (2 Corinthians 5:21) And no matter how many mistakes you make, you will never lose that righteousness because in the first place, God gave it to you apart from your works. (Romans 4:5–6) In other words, God did not impute righteousness to you because you were good, but because you believed in Jesus.

Because of what Jesus has done for you at the cross, all your sins—past, present and future—are forgiven. God will by no means ever remember your sins or count them against you! (Hebrews 8:12, 10:17)

My friend, because Jesus has been punished for your sins, today, God is not counting your sins against you. This means that your sins won’t stop Him from hearing and responding to your prayers. So you can always run into His presence knowing that you can boldly stand in and enjoy His presence and His love.

When you know this truth, it is going to set you free in your relationship with God. You can talk to Him without fear or any sense of condemnation. You can practice His presence and trust that He always hears you. Should something happen at home or at work, you don’t always have to call for your church leaders—you pray and God hears you!

Beloved, you are righteous in Christ and God hears your prayers—all because of Jesus!

Joseph Prince

I should note that in contrast to Mr. Prince, and in line with my view that God is nonviolent, I subscribe to the “Christus Victor” theory of the Atonement. Although the Penal Substitution Theory is more commonly held, the idea of Christus Victor seems to be that it was actually Satan’s wrath being poured out on Christ at the cross, not God’s. (Because, after all, “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.” 2 Cor. 5:19.

Christus Victor is related to the Ransom Theory, with the idea that “redeeming" means "buying back.” Satan offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus, “in an instant” (Lk 4:5)–without Jesus contradicting his right to do so at that time.

You may recall the discussion of a property deed scroll in Jeremiah 32. That passage helps our understanding of how a kinsman could buy back land by paying the purchase price. The sealed book could then be delivered to the original owner, or the heir. The heir could, at his convenience, break the seals, and, with the open scroll as his authority, take possession of the land—by force, if necessary.

So, as to the Second Coming, the process of officially evicting Satan begins when the Lamb starts breaking those seals on the title deed (Rev. 6).

Blessings.

anon12438761 · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

1 Pet 3.7: Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

In my churches’ bible study group, we have had to deal with this a few times, especially from a Church of Christ position. And the Idea of where Paul was coming from. (women not even able to speak in the congregation)

Just to clarify, we are a non denominational church with some folks coming from other backgrounds!

All I advocate is that there is a Holy Spirit and that the Gospels and epistles are historical, cultural documents. I am not saying that they are in any way diminished, but that paradigm and context be appreciated.

anon12438761 · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

I understand. It’s true also that the word ‘cultural’, as you know, carries significant baggage with it - and I guess here we simply have to use our best judgment as to what is culturally-shaped and what is inspired? It’s a toughie.

Basically I was responding to Joseph Prince, above, who disagrees with this:
“Some people think that if they were more “right” with God, then He would hear their prayers. For example, they sometimes believe that if they had not quarreled with their wives or had those bad thoughts earlier in the day, then God would answer their prayers.”

Well the apostle does imply that not all prayers are received by God equally.

edited to make more inscrutable

anon12438761 · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

Edited. Sorry, it was clear to me at the time but not on re-reading.

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

DaveB said:

I may not even be responding to your post, so forgive me if I am trampling on what you said

There is a cultural significance to the thing we call the Bible. And there is a historical/date significance . So my contention is that how we deal with women in our current congregations should be predicated on that idea… If we take that one verse of Paul’s at it’s literal value, we would and could possibly be wiping away a whole group of possible proclaiming Saints?

Just a thought

anon12438761 · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

I’m pretty sure I agree with what you’re saying.

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

Yepper

Hermano · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

The real question is: Are the hindrances from God’s side, or from man’s side? Is God putting up barriers, or is man putting up the barriers (with Satan’s encouragement)?

My understanding is that the “your prayers” in 1 Peter 3:7 is a genitive plural, meaning “you all’s prayers”—the prayers of the couple.

And although we have this promise:

“Again, I assure you: If two of you on earth agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.” Mt 18:19,

we also have this condition:

*“Dear friends, if our conscience doesn’t condemn us, we have confidence before God.” *1 John 3:21.

(This same conditional idea can be seen here:
James 5:16 “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.” Christians are exhorted by their brethren: “Get right with God!” But we are already right with God. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. 2 Cor. 5:21. But we do need to get right with other people.)

Sin is not a problem for God: “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.” 2 Cor. 5:19

But sin can still be a problem for us. God is not the legalist, Satan is. The devil still accuses us and condemns us and attacks us—as we open the door to him. But these are not things that* God *does.

Look, many people think that our sin separates us from God, because supposedly God is so scrupulously offended, so legalistic, that He can’t even LOOK at sin, à la Habakkuk 1:13:

“Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.”

But note that earlier Habakkuk has said, “Why do you tolerate wrongdoing?” (1:3) and then down in 1:13 he’s now saying, “you *cannot *tolerate wrongdoing.”

Huh? You can tolerate? Or cannot tolerate?

After all, God permanently lives in us, and will never leave us nor forsake us. Is He then blind to our sins? *** Is He not* lovingly omnipresent throughout this sinning world?**

When Jesus was hanging on that cross, when he cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” --did God really turn His back on His Son, because he had become sin for us? I say, no, never! Our compassionate, loving heavenly Daddy was, is, and always will be, stretching out open hands to every single person, regardless of how sinful they may be.

Certainly, in his humanity, Jesus may have felt cut off from his Father, BUT he firmly chose to quote the first line of Psalm 22. (Why didn’t he quote the entire psalm? Well, probably because he was suffocating to death.)

But Jesus knew that [size=130]Psalm 22[/size] is a psalm of VICTORY. Sure, the prophet David was initially describing the crucifixion, in great detail, but then **look how it ends: the glorious joy of Jesus! **:

[size=125]I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.[/size]

You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one; [size=125]
He [The Father] has not[/size] hidden his face from him [Jesus],
but has listened to his cry for help.
[size=125]
From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.

The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it![/size]

Note: I just found online this most excellent, brief message on Habakkuk 1:13. This “grace teacher,” Steve McVey, makes the point better than I ever could:

[size=130]Can God Look at Sin?[/size]

The idea that God the Father can’t look upon sin is simply wrong. It leads to an insulting conclusion about Jesus, who is God the Son. He lived in this world in the very midst of sin. He not only looked upon it but even rushed toward people trapped in sin! He saw sin as a fatal disease that needed to be cured, not a legal violation that He needed to punish.

So if Jesus rushed toward those caught in sin but His Father can’t even look at it, what would that say about Jesus? Wouldn’t it suggest that His level of purity was inferior to that of His Father? Our triune God isn’t allergic to sin in the way Superman would avoid kryptonite. To the contrary, in Jesus, He dove right into the deep end of the pool of the human condition in order to heal us and free us from sin’s death sentence against us.

Where did this idea that God can’t look on sin begin?

The idea actually began in the Garden of Eden when Adam hid after he sinned. He assumed he needed to hide because God must not see him now that he had sinned. What was God’s response? He came looking for Adam.

Habakkuk 1:13 does say that God can’t look on evil, but this verse deserves a closer examination than most people have given it. The prophet Habakkuk witnessed the people of Israel suffering evil at the hands of those who hated the God of Israel, and he couldn’t make sense of it. He cried out to God,

“Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?”

Habakkuk was expressing his bewilderment to God. Take note — God didn’t tell Habakkuk that He couldn’t look on evil. Instead, Habakkuk was venting his pain and confusion through prayer.

God’s actions didn’t fit Habakkuk’s theology. He thought God’s holiness kept Him from looking at evil. Where did Habakkuk get that idea? It had been passed down through the generations since Adam had thought the same thing. It was the result of Adam eating the forbidden fruit. When he did, the lights went out, and mankind’s clear understanding became darkened.

Aren’t you thankful that our God’s grace is bigger than our misconceptions?

He is good regardless of what we believe. God didn’t act the way Habakkuk thought He should. Thankfully, He still doesn’t always act the way we think He should. His nature is to love, and that is what He does. Of course, God can look on sin. Otherwise, how could He have looked at the people He created? Sin doesn’t scare God. Jesus came to this world to face it, to defeat it, and to put it away once and for all.

Joseph Prince knows there is still sin; we still sin. But,

[size=130]Sin has never been a problem to God because He’s offended, but because[/size] it blocks His love to us!

Blessings.

anon12438761 · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

Sure, I get that. Still, one way or the other, prayers are hindered under those circumstances.

Hermano · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

I’m glad we agree

When a husband sins against his wife, the Holy Spirit will be working to convince him to seek his wife’s forgiveness, so that their fellowship, including prayer together, is not broken through human resentment or human unforgiveness; we are not to give the devil a foothold.

But I don’t believe God has ever had any resentment or unforgiveness against anyone:
“Love keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Cor 13:5)—whether it gets an apology or not.

(Don’t theological disagreements seem to usually arise from clashing opinions about God’s true nature?)

anon12438761 · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

Hermano - btw, your mention of Christus Victor reminded me to do some reading on it, as I am a ‘low-information’ person on that theory. I found a cheap download for Kindle, bu Aulen. Read about 1/3 of it so far. Very good.

anon12438761 · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

I think you’re right on with that. Most ‘heresies’ (as defined by those who have named themselves 'orthodox) have been centered on the theory of the “two natures” or “the trinity”; but the deepest clashes are on the character of Yahweh - God the Father.

Those who weigh the OT as equal to the NT, and then try to deduce God’s character, are always going to run into insuperable problems. OTOH, taking a basic hermeneutical principle as a guide, many problems are answered, or at least become very clear.

Such as:
“Whatever doctrines seem to us to be clearly taught in the Scriptures; we receive without reserve or exception. We do not, however, attach equal importance to all the books in this collection. Our religion, we believe, lies chiefly in the New Testament. The dispensation of Moses, compared with that of Jesus, we consider as adapted to the childhood of the human race, a preparation for a nobler system, and chiefly useful now as serving to confirm and illustrate the Christian Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the only master of Christians, and whatever he taught, either during his personal ministry, or by his inspired Apostles, we regard as of divine authority, and profess to make the rule of our lives.” - Channing (of course )

Hermano · August 15, 2018, 4:15pm

-God is love. 1 John 4:8, 16.
-Love keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Cor. 13:5.

As for keeping records of wrongs, and sending curses: we get blessings from God, but accusations and curses come from Satan. Through men’s sins, he penetrates God’s hedge of protection at every opportunity.

I believe that, with help from an invisible enemy he didn’t recognize or understand, Moses sometimes embellished and distorted what he was hearing from God. However, God has disarmed legalist accuser Satan by nailing his added curses to the cross:

Regarding Moses’ embellishments and filtering of the Word of God, Richard Murray says:

Moses sometime heard the true God. Sometimes he heard the true Satan. Since he didn’t know they were opposed to each other on every level, but rather working together, he confused their personalities, words and actions. We have a better understanding because of Jesus’ indwelling and because of Jesus’ Gospel teachings. Moses often misrepresented the character of God.

In fact, this is the sin-dynamic that kept Moses from entering the Promised Land. The story is told in Numbers 20:1-12, where Moses hears the true God tell him to “speak” to a “rock” to supernaturally command it to miraculously gush water to save His parched people. Instead, Moses “struck the rock” in anger while openly rebuking the people’s lack of faith.

What Jesus sent to show His tender love and care, Moses deformed with his own Satan-inspired wrath. Now, the people thought God was disgusted and angry with them rather than tenderly concerned. In this episode, Moses heard BOTH God and Satan, first God but then immediately on top of it he heard Satan’s wrathful distortions. The result-- God’s character was misrepresented. Makes you wonder how many other times what God first spoke in love to Moses, Satan then quickly distorted with wrath by the time the people heard it.

Specifically concerning the Ten Commandments being distorted through Moses, consider this “what if?” email to me from Richard Murray:

Here is fresh way to think about the Law.

Remember seeing chalk-lines drawn on the ground indicating where at crime scenes a particular victim had been laying on the ground, but whose body had since been removed? The chalk-lines show attributes of a former presence but not a current one.
Well, this metaphor is a good one for the Law of Moses. It shows Jesus’ nature in outline form.

So, what if the REAL PURPOSE of the TEN COMMANDMENTS was NOT to tell us how bad WE can be, but instead how good and perfect Jesus IS?

In other words, consider the Ten Commandments as a “chalk line” of Jesus’ flawless divine nature. In John 5:46, Jesus said Moses wrote of Him. Jesus later confirmed that that ALL the Scriptures speak of Him.

Let’s now reread the Ten Commandments with this in mind:

1) Jesus IS God. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to be LESS than the Lord our GOD.

2) Jesus is the real divine deal, the object of our single eye, the only way, the only truth and the only life. It is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be OTHER Gods more powerful and real than Jesus.

3) Jesus carries the very name/nature of His Father. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to use His Father’s name/nature in vain and without complete victory.

4) Jesus is our completed Sabbath rest, our indwelling champion who also sits at the right hand of the Father. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to leave the Sabbath rest of His past finished work. He has already done ALL to save us.

5) Jesus loves and honors His Abba. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to dishonor His heavenly Father at any time.

6) Jesus is a healer, not a killer. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to commit murder, violence or coercion.

7) Jesus is so faithful. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to commit spiritual adultery on His bride the Church.

8) Jesus is a giver, not a taker. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to steal, rob or destroy.

9) Jesus is true. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to lie, manipulate or deceive.

10) Jesus is selfless. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to be jealous, covetous or envious.

Moses had an epiphany of Jesus on the mountain top of who Jesus WAS. But, by the time he got back down the mountain, and the glory had started to fade from his face, all he had left was a “chalk outline” of the Jesus who Moses encountered on the mountain-top.

Jesus “fulfills the Law” by replacing our OT “chalk line” understanding of Him with the real thing, the very presence of the very Son of God. This is why the literal Law is a lesser revelation than is the living Spirit.

No more chalk lines are needed. The Lord lives within us.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law.

But not in the stern way most wrath mongers teach

No, Jesus came to “fulfill” the law by “filling it full” of God’s grace.

Like a deflated raft, the Law was crumpled, flat and unable to keep us above above wrathful waters. Just like the markings on a deflated raft can’t be fully read and understood while it remains crumpled, the Law can’t be properly read until it is inflated by the Spirit of Jesus.

But Jesus filled the raft with His mighty lungs of goodness. He expanded it, enlarged it, and empowered it to keep us afloat and safe in the love of God.

The Law without Jesus’ breath of life filling it up is empty, inert and unable to save and protect us.

The Law looks one way when it is deflated, but an entirely different way when it is IN-flated with the goodness of God.

Make sure you are reading the fully “pumped up” version of the law of love found only in Christ Jesus. Moses brought us the deflated raft of the Law, but the inflation of grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17.

Let Jesus inflate you today! After all, the Greek word for “spirit” literally means “breath.”

Blessings.

Paidion · March 9, 2018, 3:28am

Hermano:

Regarding Moses’ embellishments and filtering of the Word of God, Richard Murray says:

Moses sometimes heard the true God. Sometimes he heard the true Satan. Since he didn't know they were opposed to each other on every level, but rather working together, he confused their personalities, words and actions. We have a better understanding because of Jesus' indwelling and because of Jesus' Gospel teachings. Moses often misrepresented the character of God.

In fact, this is the sin-dynamic that kept Moses from entering the Promised Land. The story is told in Numbers 20:1-12, where Moses hears the true God tell him to "speak" to a "rock" to supernaturally command it to miraculously gush water to save His parched people. Instead, Moses "struck the rock" in anger while openly rebuking the people's lack of faith.

What Jesus sent to show His tender love and care, Moses deformed with his own Satan-inspired wrath. Now, the people thought God was disgusted and angry with them rather than tenderly concerned. In this episode, Moses heard BOTH God and Satan, first God but then immediately on top of it he heard Satan's wrathful distortions. The result-- God's character was misrepresented. Makes you wonder how many other times what God first spoke in love to Moses, Satan then quickly distorted with wrath by the time the people heard it.

An interesting explanation, Hermano! I fully agree that Moses misrepresented God’s character. The way I have explained it in a different Christian forum is that Moses sometimes confused his own thoughts with God’s revelation. I have been raked over the coals for holding this view, I think with the supposition that I don’t believe the word of God.