The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Are there any verses

Are there any verses that arent conventionally used by those who believe in the salvation of all that you can or do make a point from using them as a theosophical approach?

For instance, and i dont remember exactly where, but there is one verse that says something along the lines of
“If a man dig a hole, and his neighbors bull falls into it, the man who did not cover the hole is responsible and must pay for the lost bull”
To me this could be made an argument for the tree of good and evil. God did not cover or hide it, and therefor took responsibility for what had happened, and Christ was the payment to pay back humanity for the hole He let them fall into.

Or the verse the says something along the lines of “if one does not take care of one from his own household, he is worse than an unbeliever”
Would God not take care of and save all His children, have we all not one father?

Anyways id like to hear if anyone has other verses that are usually overlooked in favor of the more obvious verses that are used in defense of the salvation of all.

The Best Text Concerning Correction After Judgment

I consider the following to be the best text in the Bible concerning the correction of the unrighteous after they are judged!

The Lord knows how to deliver the devout out of trial, but to reserve the unrighteous for a day of judgment, to be corrected. (2 Peter 2:9)

Here is an interlinear for your consideration:

οιδεν—κυριος— ευσεβεις εκ πειρασμου ρυεσθαι— αδικους

knows the Lord—— devout—out of trial—— to deliver-unrighteous

δε -εις -ημεραν κρισεως—— κολαζομενους τηρειν

but into a day—- of judgment to be corrected to keep (2 Peter 2:9)

The whole strength of this “proof” lies in the translation of the lexical form of κολαζομενους, that is, “κολαζω” as “to correct”. I realize that some may object to this translation, but the Online Bible Greek Lexicon gives the primary meanings of “κολαζω”as:

  1. to lop or prune* to chastise, correct, punish

Abbott-Smith’s A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament gives the meanings:

  1. to curtail, dock, prune* to check, restrain* to chastise, correct, punish

Originally, the word was used to reference to the pruning of trees, shrubs, or vines with a view to correcting their growth by shaping them. Later it was used figuratively with reference to the correction of people, e.g. Children. To translate the word as “punish” is correct as long as it is understood to be reformative rather than retributive. In English, “punish” may have either connotation, although it is more often taken in the latter sense, or in the sense of administering a penalty.

In Greek, the word “τιμωρεω” has the meaning “to punish” in the penal sense and the retributive sense. Indeed, every lexicon I have checked gives the primary meaning as “to administer a penalty” or “to avenge”. Strongs indicates that the word was derived from the two words “τιμη” (honour) and “οὐρος”(guard). Put them together, and you have the concept of a person guarding his honour through penalty or vengeance. In recording Paul’s own words concerning his treatment of disciples of Christ prior to Paul’s becoming a disciple himself, Luke wrote:

Acts 22:5 "as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished (τιμωρεω) .

Acts 26:11 "and I punished (τιμωρεω) them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.

One of the best ways to get a sense of how a Greek word is used is to note how it is used in literature. The word is used in 4 Macabees 2:12 to indicate correction of children. No good parent punishes his children out of vengeance, but corrects them out of love.

4 Macabees is thought to have been written sometime between 100 B.C. to 100 A.D., that is, in the period in which the New Testament was written. It seems the author had been strongly moved by his reading of the deeds of Antiochus Ephiphanes against the Jews in 1 and 2 Macabees. So much of his “philosophical” thought and “devout reason” centers around the history he read there. In the following sentence he uses both “τιμωρεω” and “ κολαζω“ in a single sentence!

The tyrant Antiochus was both punished (τιμωρεω) on earth and is being corrected (κολαζω) after his death. (4 Maccabees 18:5)

The Judaistic belief at the time was that people’s souls survive death. So the sentence seems to say that while Antochus’s enemies got their revenge on him and his armies here on earth, God began to correct his soul after death. The author apparently held that post-mortem punishment was remedial. Otherwise he would not have chosen the word “κολαζω” but would have maintained the word “τιμωρεω” for his punishment after death, too.

Here is an example from the Septuagint translation of Ezekiel 43:10-11:

And you, son of man, show to the household of Israel, the house, and show its appearance and its arrangement,that they may cease from their sins. And they shall receive their κολασις concerning all their doings, and you shall describe the house, and its entrances and its foundation, and all its systems, and you shall make known to them all it regulations and describe them in their presence, and they shall guard all my righteous ordinances and all my commands and do them. (Ezekiel 43:10-11)

In this passage, God states His purpose in asking Ezekiel to show the house to Israel, namely that they may cease from their sins. He immediately follows this with “And they shall receive their κολασις concerning all their doings.” If God wants them to cease from their sins, and then gives them κολασις, is He penalizing them or punishing them retributively, or is He correcting them? The answer seems plain. Furthermore the conclusion of the matter is that the Israelites “will guard all my righteous ordinances and all my commands and do them.”

Surely this is reformation, and not mere penalty or revenge for their wrongdoing in the past.

Here is the Concordant translation of the verse in question:

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging.

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My favorite is 5 verses before the end of the bible Rev 22.17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come and let him who hears say, Come, and let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely”

IMHO this invitation is to the unsaved still left in the Lake of Fire.

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Man ill admit i know a little bit here and there about mistranslations and the greek and hebrew counterparts. As many noobies to the teaching of the reconciliation of all things are. But you see pretty fluent linguist in these matters. Are you a academic scholar of ancient language or just learned of your own accord?

And thanks for the in depth post. I read it all and found it quite thorough. Ive come across some videos also saying the correction is remedial and not retributive due to verses such as Christ saying “aionios kolasis” instead of basinizo.

I would tend to agree. Im not a preterist. Mainly because death is still reigning. so I too believe that revelation is still to come. And it saddens me that many stop the end of revelations short of the full glory of God. Where death and the curse is abolished, and there shall be no more tears or suffering. How could there be no more suffering if we have loved ones forever in “hell”! I know id go crazy.

I haven’t studied Hebrew, but I was exposed to Hellenistic Greek in my one year of study at a Bible school when I was 21, and continued to study the language formally at University. And because I considered it important to understand the New Testament in it original language, I continued with independent study of Greek throughout the rest of my life. I am now 80.

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thats really cool! Im not keen on much of the language, though like i said above i do know the errors of some translations with certain words.