The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Are things getting WORSE or BETTER?

Hi all, :smiley:

I think this has been discussed in the past, but not in my time here and Nick’s recent post on Richard Beck’s “Preterism” thread made me think this could be an interesting discussion. Here is Nick’s post there:

There’s much to discuss here and I suspect what you think about things getting better or worse depends not only on your theology, but , perhaps, on your politics as well.

That being said, Nick seems to see a link between growing secularism and things beings worse. He doesn’t explicitly link secularism with some of the horrors of the 20th century, which he mentions as “World War I, II, Holocaust, etc.”. It seems difficult to link particularly WWI-- which involved nations that were pretty definitely “Christian” by any definition-- with secularism. Certainly one could hold that these nations were only** nominally** “Christian” but I doubt that holds water either. Perhaps [tag]sobornost[/tag] could fill us in on more of the historical details.

Taking a non-violent and Girardian view of things, I would say that, though “Christian”, these nations still had an incomplete, violent and “sacrificial” view of Christ and Christianity and that led them to initiate and participate in a horrific and wasteful war (WWI) despite being “Christian”. I would argue that those events and the percolation of the ideas of non-violence and the promotion of the idea “hidden from the foundation of the world” that scapegoats are innocent has led to some improvement over time. Not that people are innately any better, just that more and more cultures are recognizing and agreeing with this view and at least realize that they can no longer scapegoat individuals or groups with impunity. Medieval europe was certainly very devout and “Christian” and yet acts that were committed then by the average peasant and nobleman would rightly be considered “medieval” today. The rise of “the free press” has helped to a great extent in pointing out the failings of governmental leaders as well, but they as well have been influenced by the story of 2000 years ago, whether they realize it or not.

This is certainly not a “Golden Age” by any means, but I see hope in the changes in attitudes towards the poor, women, minorities, homosexuals and otherwise marginalized people. BTW, my mother would agree with you that the world is “going to Hell in a hand basket!” :laughing:

So what say you all? :smiley:

Pet peeve of mine: “things are getting so horrible in the world that its an obvious sign that Jesus is coming back soon.” No. Some things are better, some things worse.

When were nations ever Christian – really Christian I mean? Look at the age of Reformation; terrible, appalling religious wars were fought – only mitigated by the fact that the technology of war was not as advanced as today – with dreadful slaughter of Christians by Christians. Witch hunts and pogroms against Jews were seen as part of Christian duty by many. Religious persecution took place on a massive scale, Despicable public executions were commonplace with people tortured slowly to death to the delight of the crowd – and sometimes even given death by inches – tortured to death slowly over a number of days. And I could go on…

But there were also signs of hope in this age…

World War I was fought by nations with armies blessed by clergy. The Holocaust – well it did have roots in technocracy and in Nazi racist ideology – but it was also fed by centuries of Christian anti-Semitism.

Secularisation – the separation of Church and state to allow religious freedom and freedom of conscience – is a wonderful thing. Secularism in terms of society being godless… well is this so? There was a theory of secularisation popular with sociologists in the sixties that predicted religion would gradually disappear. But religion is very much in the picture again today sometime back with a blessing sometimes with a vengeance. It is a commonplace of premillennialist Christians that the world is going to the dogs and becoming more godless and more depraved. However I think we see sings of destructiveness and signs of hope in our age – as has always been the case.

Well, since there is a separate discussion for my comment now. I would like to elucidate some things. First off, I was posting that against the preterist view since I believe it seemed to ignore the words of Jesus when he said in Matthew 24 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

I think that the Preterist view has some merits Nick - but in my view yes there will be a culmination foo history at some point when powers of oppression go into their final spasms and those who live out of the sprit of wrath that is the ‘generation’ of all oppression, false accusation and other evils will be tested most heavily in the fire of these times (as will those who do not but they will witness to the contrary spirit that sends e evil into it final spasms - as we all must whether or not current spasms are final). No one know the day or hour - no one does. Throughout history - especially at times of oppression, disease, famine, and plague - many Christians have thought they were living in the end times literally (and all of the so called predictions seemed to fit - but they were just wars and rumours of war, and peace where there is no peace). But I don’t think it is helpful to see prophecies as mechanistic predictions as if God is puppet master of world events - especially the disasters. IN the past obsession with end times has lead to acute paranoia - as it still does today. And this paranoia has resulted in the persecution of Jews, heretics, slaughter of fellow Christian, waste of energy that could have been put into building the Peaceable Kingdom as Christ’s stewards until his return ( we must be found doing our duty) etc. The historical evidence for this is massive and some of the most wicked things - like the Protocols’ of the Elders of Zion persecution myth that inspired the Holocaust (forgery of Orthodox Christian fanatics in the Tsarist Secret Police in first origins) -have come out of millenarian obsessions. I think it wrong today to identify any one power, or one people, or one group with the apocalyptic bad guys. We must sift our own consciences in the time of wheat and tares for where our inner mixed alliances are going. And also be of good and reflective conscience about our own contribution to eh posers that we interact with in the world.

We are free born.

No one knows the day or hour.

Blessings

Dick :slight_smile:

Thanks Dick and Nick, :smiley:

I thought it might be worth posting a quote regarding Rene Girard’s view of apocalypse from this article here by Robert Doran, “Rene Girard’s Apocalyptic Modernity”:comunicacaoecultura.com.pt/wp-content/uploads/02.-Robert-Doran.pdf

This is largely how I see things, with the potential for violence in the form of war worsening due to the “demystifying of the scapegoat mechanism”, but with hope that humanity will move beyond where it is currently when it recognizes its own violence.

A brief look at William Guy Carr is not very reassuring to me as someone to take seriously, Nick. :confused: Here’s the first paragraph from the Wiki entry here:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Guy_Carr

Here’s another quote from the entry mentioning Pike:

The Wiki goes into more detail about the “3WW” and which, though pretty fascinating again,is not something I would take very seriously…

The whole illuminati and conspiracy theory thing brought to mind this bit from my favorite Mike Meyers movie… :wink:

Hey all,
The reason I look for signs of the times is not to look for the end of time but to the types and shadows of Biblical events play out. In a way, it is encouraging to see God show us He exists and cares for us and protects us through history. It is a way of God speaking to us if we look for it. To hone down exactly what I mean about “signs of the times”, I don’t just mean Jesus words about end times but about patterns of Old Testament through events like Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles, Jubilee, and/or any of the prophecies occurring in a way reflecting Old Covenant, not the Old Covenant is still obeyed but is followed through lenses of the New Covenant (that is through Jesus’ viewpoint.) This leads me to my next point: If anybody is using the signs of the times to find and persecute people who may be considered those oppressing God’s people, then they are operating according to the Old Covenant. Rather, we should love all including those work against God’s will. The problem is not containing violence for humans do not have that capability with our corrupt nature. Only the Holy Spirit can guide us to the ways of peace which most people in control of the countries reject in favor of humanism/secularism. Ultimately, Love=God wins.

Nick I agree with a lot of what you’re saying except the concept that things are getting worse. The idea that this is a Christian nation or that secularism is spreading is a bit off in my view. Any nation is not a part of he kingdom of heaven, in any point in history. There is no duel citizenship. The people that founded this country and after many had strong faith for sure, yet they operated according to the kingdom of this world. oppression of natives along with slavery, and a whole host of other un-kingdom like policies and thought processes don’t need to be elucidated but manifest destiny is a beast destiny not of the son.

The same could be said for the religiosity of the past. Give me that old time religion. No thanks. Are there good things that came about from the church with its activities and revivals? Yes, Along with many horrid things like control and shame being poured on young minds. There are people of the kingdom within the church and people not yet aware of their true manifest destiny of sonship. This has always been the case. The 22000 denominations are also not the kingdom. I’m glad to see the hold of fundamentalism fade in America. The doctrine of eternal torment can go to hell and take with it it’s condemnation doctrines that place heavy burdens. The mega corporation or mega church can go away. The staleness of rote Christianity can go away. The falsity of so much of Christianity going away and being replaced by secularism as you say which I don’t believe, as I think most people believe in god, just not the one that’s been created by Christianity. Which is my long winded point. The facade can go. This secularism as you call it is just that you can function in society now without the stigma that you’re not a good Christian. Which can also go. Is much rather my neighbor be who he is instead of being forced to be religious because that is the norm.

I believe that these people who have left the church are many who are of the other fold. Rejecting the false god of much of the “church” is not rejecting the true god.

Just my thoughts :slight_smile:

Hey RedHotMagma,
I understand what you are saying about the church, but you seem to think that we are separate from it if we choose so. What I believe is the “Church” is the group of believers in God as fundamentally maintained by the Bible. Even though many of the Fundie churches claim to be the Church that doesn’t mean we don’t get to claim that we are part of it too. I believe that we (EU’s and Fundies and all Christians) are all working together against the world’s temptations while bringing those in its mindset within the fold of Christianity. Those who have the pure, most Biblical viewpoint and who represent Christ’ character through works (a manifestation of mature faith) in the end times (along with all others like us throughout history) are the Remnant Overcomer Saints rule with Jesus over this earth as it is being spiritually renewed through the fire of God’s judgement. It is necessary that this world become worse to prove that the badguys in control will be exposed and Jesus will come back to save us.
The point I’m making is that the church’s bad rep doesn’t matter but those who truly represent Christ will mirror the Light to a dark world full of sin. Let’s take up our cross. It’s our turn to REPRESENT the Church, brothers and sisters. Let’s get married to Jesus already! _ :smiley: _/

I just don’t see it that way. Well I agree the body of Christ is present within any denomination, but that doesn’t mean church good guys non church bad guys. What similarity do I have to a fundie baptist? I know many intimately. There is much in common yes but something’s not right. It’s just a bit off. Bizarro Jesus. We will not be even on the same team as you say because they are fighting for literalism and bibliolatry. The main issues for many Christians in America is proving the earth 6000 years old or proving the end times with its rapture. Also fighting for God and country. This is a warped view of what we are called to be and do.

I think you will find just as many new agers, secularists, pagans, Buddhists, Hindus on “the good guys” team when the time comes. And you will be shocked by the evil coming from many so called Christians if the stuff hits the fan. If there is a big showdown.

This is not against all Christians and churches. Just saying “but lord lord we did miracles in your name”. It’s not such a black and white issue.

Just to respond to the OP question: Some things are getting worse, while others are getting better.

The following cartoons are not related to my statement. I just wanted to share them.

i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/Signs/TheEnd_zps3438ef60.png

i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/Signs/Relaxitallhappenedin70ad_zps5e6c87d7.png

I’m not spiritually mature enough to take on your view about others traditionally considered outside of Christianity being the Overcomers in place of Christians, redhotmagma. Nevertheless, I do agree that most of the Church won’t make it the first time around.

Steve, that film is awesome! One of my favourite Mike Myers films too.

I’d say in a cautiously optimistic way that despite the best efforts of churches and corporations and governments and irrational individuals, God’s Kingdom is spreading. We have a long way to go, however. Many things that have changed for the better are reverting, some bad things are changing for the better, and some things that need to change are stagnant. But i think overall, things move forward.

Are things getting better or worse, on the whole neither, though in terms of scale most definitely worse, the last century and now coming into this one have been the bloodiest period in human history, with suffering, torture, death and genocide on a scale and magnitude unheard of at any other time since humans have come into existence. Poverty, injustice, mass enslavement through debt and political gaming and economic games is also at a scale unheard of before our age, with the gulf between those who have and those areas and nations they don’t massive, with the majority of the resources and benefits of the world and what we can do with it enjoyed by a small percentage of the world, and also few nations, mostly Western ones, which have created an entire economic system that enslaves everyone else to work for it. In the world at the moment, we are Egypt and Pharaoh, and the peoples throughout much of the rest of the world are enslaved Israel. We are also the first civilization in history that has decided to make usery the basis of our economy, something that people of any previous could neither have believed, and would regard the mass enslavement that it has wrought, creating whole new ways to have and extend empires with horror. The very nations and different periods of the medieval periods of history whose names are so often associated as a name for more primitive or barbarous behaviour in the popular mind would find the open embrace of avarice and greed at all levels of human society and our disregard of the sacredness of beauty and our waste and the damage it causes with the same horror as we regard their violent executions and martial societies. As CS Lewis once observed, we see all to easily the faults of other ages and civilizations but are blind to our own, we easily see the splinter in their eye and miss the log in our own.

The myth of progress is just that, a myth and a fiction, one which has been used to justify all sorts of unjust and evil systems, practices and actions, and is one we need wake up from. The certainty that is breed into us all areas of our society, from childhood onwards is the narrative of progress and we breathe it in at all areas, that we are living at a better time and progressing to a higher civilization and regard all that come before with as lesser ages clouded by ‘superstition’ and ‘primitive views’ and regard ourselves, however unconsciously in using other language as more enlightened, and it willfully blinds us to the evils and terrible injustices of our own age, that for every advance we have made we have brought 5 other horrors upon humanity and the world with it, and often perverted even those advances in knowledge into something destructive (if that wasn’t the initial purpose in the first place).

So no things are not getting better, they might not be worse overall, but it is not better, and we need to see the log in our own eye rather than the speck in the eyes of previous ages so we can help be avenues for healing and help see God’s Kingdom brought to people, societies, environment and creation, knowing it won’t be completed until His appearing, and that we stand organically connected to both Christians and people of the past and their work which we continue and inherit, and who are yet though dead still alive in Christ with us as we all await the resurrection and the full renewal of all things.

And a warning on evil, both for those who focus on the Accuser and the demonic as actual beings and forces, and to those who tend to dismiss that and focus on it as purely something coming from humans and human structures, evil isn’t something you can easily contain or put clear label on, it’s more unseen and insidious than that. Sometimes it works through human structures and persons and sometimes it does not, and those who think they have understood how it works and labelled it and keep their focus on that area, will find it appearing in another area and place they did not expect, and is something cancerous that is both deeper, more malignant, and not so easy to pin down, and we should be careful of limiting the arenas in which it can manifest and function, or to particularly spheres, human, societal, psychological, demonic , internal and external, and not think we know all how evil works, and blind ourselves to it’s other areas and find ourselves unpleasantly surprised when it comes in ways we don’t expect. Rather we should keep our eyes open, and be as innocent as doves, but wise as serpents.

James said:

I’m glad you like the film as well, James! There are so many lines from that movie my wife and I will use. Like when one of the kids is in front of the TV it’s “HEEED! MOVE!” or “That’s a virtual planetoid!” and the always useful “Piper doown!” :laughing:

I think we see things similarly, in that I, too, see the Kingdom spreading and the heart of Christ’s message spreading without the world even recognizing where it’s come from. I think the potential for tremendous evil has grown with the increase in the world population and the growth in technology, but overall, I think the world is a far better place than it was 300 or more years ago…or even 100 years ago. In fact, the growth in the world’s population is due in large part to advances in many areas that improve life expectancy and decrease infant mortality. Would we really want to live 200 years ago?

So I have to disagree with Grant’s pessimism and his very politically slanted view of things.(Why are Honduran mothers sending their children to the US if it’s so terrible?) BTW, Grant, is all interest on loans “usury” or only excessive and abusive interest? I’m curious about your view here… I do see things getting better for the most part. I doubt the Medieval folk Grant mentions would be especially aghast at the avarice and greed of our civilization. I think the average peasant woman actually would be quite thankful that three out of four of her children don’t have to die before their first birthday. Oh, and I think CS Lewis, like many, had a romantic and unrealistic view of Medieval times that skewed his thought. A “High-Tory” at heart as Dick has pointed out. :wink:

Are there political and economic injustices “The West” contributes to? Absolutely! But I hardly think the rest of the world is “enslaved” to us and that we are “Egypt and Pharaoh.” The Chinese would beg to differ and I suspect India would as well. I’m thankful for the activists and prophets pointing out the faults and abuses of America and the West, but let’s be honest, would I rather live in America or under Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe? America has many faults and I recognize that, but I think and hope it’s willing to confront and address those faults…and I would live here rather than Medieval europe (or Medieval Anywhere) no questions asked. :smiley:

Interestingly blogger/professor Randal Rauser thinks eschatology is the reason many conservative Christians think things are getting worse. Interesting (and short) post of his here: randalrauser.com/2013/01/why-do-conservative-christians-think-everything-is-getting-worse/

Some ‘things’ are better, some worse; I believe that those of us who lived during the 20th century have seen how far mankind has NOT come - when the holocaust pales against other atrocities, I don’t think we see an improvement in mankind at all. (Perhaps, given the same powers of destruction, mankind would have been as bloody violent, in the same scale, in early history as was the 20C; I believe in fact that that is so.) You can do a Google search for such terms as 20th century atrocities, holocausts, mass killings, genocides, the Gulag, Mao, Somalia, etc etc - things we all are ‘aware’ of to some extent - or - and this is NOT a moral judgment - the 30 million or so (by ‘or so’ I mean that the range of estimates goes well above 50 million) babies/fetuses that have been killed since 1973 in the USA alone ,(which by the way is perhaps the biggest factor in our miserable economy as well - that’s 30 million less taxpayers), and that is in itself a type of genocide. I’m not wanting to go into that particular moral issue other than to point at the numbers.

Would I want to go back to medieval times? No. Life was shorter and perhaps more brutish (open to question though), unless you were born to the manor or the cloth. (And as a side note, if we were magically to appear in the average medieval village, we might very well die on the spot from - the smell!)

Long post short, it appears to me that the time-slice we are in now is ‘better’ than the time-slice of most earlier eras, in regards to many things; I don’t think, though, that it is impossible for mankind as a whole to revert to a brutal, might-makes-right, survival of the fittest, degenerate civilization.(Which is of course what much of the world is, right this minute) It is my guess that that will be the case, based not on eschatology, but on an (admittedly narrow) historical education, and on observation.

I grew up in the last half of the century. I see no reason to feel optimistic; I have tried. And I hope to God that I am wrong.

On a lighter note, I would love to hear the doc and the prof try to rake Jack Lewis over the coals. :laughing:

Genocide not just on the scale but with the specific intent that has become common in the last few centuries was rare in medieval and ancient times, in terms of the specific intent of wiping out another culture or ethnic group completely, the Romans themselves were one of the few groups that are distinguished by the extremity of their violence in terms of employing total destruction upon city’s and groups that rebelled against the peace of Caesar (and was something that other cultures found shocking in the extent of destruction). But genocide as we know it was rare in the past, it happened but nothing like the scale (and not just in terms of pure numbers) as has happened in our time, but the extent of violence and it’s aims of the total destruction of another people in every way conceivable is something our age has made itself a master of, outdoing anything, including Rome at the height of it’s brutality, has done before. For all the brutality that was committed in past ages ours outstrips all that has come before in the systemic nature and extensiveness of our brutality and violence, and the global and merciless reach of our new empires and their power games, the majority of people in the world who suffer from it outside the safe islands we create for the few against the many.

Also the term medieval doesn’t cover one homogenous culture, but many and varied cultures and civilisations and significant changes and variations over time, with some at different times more urban and others more rural, some more egalitarian in their society and more cooperative than others, there is little that fits the common caricatures that often given for medieval society in popular conception, not the mention that it was the high middle ages saw the birth of universities in the West, which were more dynamic and free in their thought than anything since, including today, and society was often more mobile than is often portrayed. But my point is not to deny the evils that happened in those cultures and civilizations, or during the ancient times, but rather to suggest we are better than previous ages is far from simple, nor to ask which time is better to live in, because darkness and death that breeds injustices at all levels, societal, structural, personal and so on have been something all of us at all times have faced and been afflicted by, and so it is rather the belief that this is really a better time for all humanity, it’s a fantasy to me, one only possible to indulge in for the wealthy and wealthier nations, not for the majority of people alive for whom life is far from pleasant, and misses the extensive role the games of the powerful have had in causing and maintaining such misery. And while Lewis might have been nostalgic due to his romanticism for medieval thought (though again that thought itself is something we owe most of the basis of our own thought to), in no way detracts from the truth of that statement he made (we are all biased and blinkered in some areas, but just because we have certain inclinations doesn’t mean what say isn’t right, and a certain bias or prejudice doesn’t necessarily detract from the truth of a statement in itself), which has a deep wisdom and warning to me, that in seeing clearly the abuses and evils of times past, don’t be blind to the abuses and evils that characterise our own. So again, this isn’t better nor not, but rather the fantasy of progress I disagree strongly with, particularly where it has caused such harm, and blinds people to the abuses it either justifies or pushes to the periphery, it is a perversion of the truth of God’s Kingdom coming on Earth as in heaven, a twist of the true narrative, and prevents a sober analysis of our own age and time. And again this is about are things getting better for all, not just some, is the world for all people collectively through world actually better, is humanity better now as a whole (not just some some sections, or is it better for some people, afterall it’s always been better for some people at any time in history), not just a few people or the more powerful groups and nations, so I’m not saying is it’s not better to live in the US or UK than elsewhere currently (that fact is a bit damning itself when you think about it) but what is experience for most people in our age, that is the benchmark for me, and in that light no I don’t think we are better collectively, nor as a humanity as a whole, just better in some areas and a few places and worse in others. Also the belief that people from those times would have no reaction to our mass loans with interest, I think that reveals more about how deeply it has become the basis of our economy, one that is based itself on debt, and trading of debt rather than commodities, that the people of medieval and ancient times. Usury was seen as a great evil, to lend and hold others to debt, particularly with interest, was a something either not allowed at all, or only tolerated in very limited degree, to know and see it was a basis of a whole culture’s economy and system, I don’t think we can fully appreciate the shock someone from those times would have to that. That would see it as part of a whole culture giving itself to something that was universally regarded as a system of oppression and evil.

As to some of the examples, the fact that Honduran or any other mothers around the world are having to but cut off from their children, and the children from their parents, and subject them to terrible dangerous journeys and travels and in such numbers is a far from a sign things are getting better for everyone, but for a very small few. When the tide of humanity washes up on US or British or European lands in such vast numbers telling us it’s terrible out there, enduring massive danger to get here is an eloquent display of just how bad it is for so many people around the world. And in relation to such refugees, what often really happens to them, they are at the mercy of human trafficking, which has become again as it was before (in the older context of slavery) a whole global industry of human abuse, slavery, degradation and death, so many women and children end up as sexual slaves even when they arrive in their hoped for ‘safe havens’, with parents in areas of Africa and Asia in such grinding poverty they have give children up, or even sell them to such crime rings where they become prey from abusers and pheodphiles. And this isn’t some occasional shocking horror, it’s massive and institutional and in such numbers that even thinking of it scares and terrifies me to think of such children subjected to so much abuse and harm. And are such refugees and migrants accepted by our nations as a whole who avoid the worst of the ills of human trafficking (rather than individual exceptions) seen as hurting strangers with open arms or suspicion, rejection and made scapegoats for the ills of our own societies? I can’t speak for the US, and perhaps things are better where you are, but here in the UK it is a common complaint that immigration is causing economic and social problems for us, that it is ‘those people’ that are the criminals and we need to get them out and have more draconian immigration laws, rather than drawing the connection between our own nations and company’s power games in their countries that more than a little contributed to the situation that brings them to our shores (and of course are their ills really over, perhaps improved, but not over). At least that is how it often is in the UK, where the far right is enjoying a resurgence across Europe along other extremist views.

Taking just one area, the Congo is one of the most richest places in the world in terms of resources and minerals, but the support for Mobutu Sese Seko, who during the Congo Crisis was installed with Belgian and CIA-backed forces in a coup against the nationalist government of Patrice Lumumba in 1960 because Mobutu’s anti-communist stance (and so as so many other areas in the world, the Congo became a game-piece between the West and the Soviets in their imperial power games), Lumumba who was the first leader to be democratically elected as was killed which he took power as the army chief of staff, leading to direct power in a second coup in 1965, changing the country’s name to Zaire in 1971. Establishing a single-party state with all power concentrated in his hands, forming an authoritarian regime amassing vast personal wealth purging the country of all colonial cultural influence while continuing to enjoy considerable support from the US and the West due to his anti-communist stance. His wealth was made through vast economic exploitation and corruption, and massive exploitative loans, which the West was quite happy in giving to support his regime, leading to uncontrolled inflation, massive debt and massive currency devaluations, until by 1991 economic deterioration and unrest lead first to forcing him to agree to share power, until still using his armed forces to prevent change until May 1997 when the rebel forces led by Laurent Kabila expelled him from the country. Since then things have further deteriorated there, both internally and externally with other nations both close and far exploiting the Congo, and the debt Mobutu brought that World Bank and all the nations still demand that the people themselves pay even as it keeps them in the most grinding poverty, despite living in likely the most richest land in terms of resources (and having such diversity of them), based on the statement that it would be unethical and irresponsible to let people off their debt, it would apparently not lead to responsible behaviour. But these same nations had no problem forgiving the debt of the banks in our own countries when the global debt crisis hit us, suddenly it isn’t irresponsible to forgive debt anymore, when it’s our own necks on the line, and when it’s the rich and powerful who are in the firing line, Caesar takes care of his own friends, the hypocrisy would be amusing if it wasn’t so tragic. And now in Congo the death toll has risen to around 6.9 million, with nations and international companies like vultures exploiting that land even today, and sadly it’s not an isolated example. A court recently in New York has awarded two US vulture funds (funds who buy others debts and trade on them, and then using the exorbitant interest to profiteer on these debts which they never lent, so they can get a maximum profit despite the original conditions or intention behind the loan or held the debt and their intentions) a $1.3 billion payout of debts brought up after Argentina’s debt crisis of 2001, and have told Argentina it is illegal to pay it’s other debts unless it also pays the vulture funds, it was due to pay the first $900 million payment on 30 June (plus a 30 day grace period), which if it hasn’t had any further resolution since I last check would be forcing Argentina to a new debt default. While since the financial crisis, there has been a new boom in lending to developing countries around the world, between 2007-2012 it has doubled, shooting up by 130% in sub-Saharan Africa since 2006, with countries that that have thankfully received debt cancellation in the last decade together with the ones that were never so lucky, are being afflicted and the shadow grows upon them again. Even the IMF and the Financial Times are beginning to notice this.

Perhaps some think I’m being to harsh or to pessimistic, and perhaps that’s a fair charge I don’t know, perhaps I am seeing more the dark right now than than the light, but I don’t objectively see we are better than previous ages globally in the both humanity or the whole experience of all humanity, we are more technologically advanced, and we have brought more light in some areas than previous ages, and become blind and brought harm in other areas more than previous ages. So we are neither better nor worse, the same power of death faces and afflicts us as it has done all humans, and it is the fiction of progress that is the cardinal doctrine of our age which must be resisted and seen through to more soberly face the problems of our time and seek to bring healing.

And I would just repeat my warning to to think we have evil all figured out and in a nice, neat box, because it has a way of getting out of those mental conceptions and boxes and coming at us in ways we are not expecting, it is a darker and greater mystery than that.

As for being a pessimist or an optimist,as Lesslie Newbigin said, I’m neither, Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, and the defeat of death and fulfilment of creation and humanity began and promised in Him will be fulfilled.

(Edited for a little more clarity, and thank you Steve for deleting the second post, also a last note, I hope no one feels I’m personally getting at them, because that isn’t my intention at all, rather I’m just rather passionate about some of the above issues so sometimes I get a bit polemic on it)

Excellent post, Grant! :smiley:
You’ve made some good points and I’ll address your post later today when I have a bit more time. Looks like you double-posted so I deleted the duplicate.

Oh, and Dave, I don’t really want to rake Lewis over the coals on this one, just wanted to point out that he’s a bit biased. I love so much of what he wrote and was just looking for my copy of That Hideous Strength which I can’t seem to find as I always enjoy it. (Some good medievalism in that one! :wink: )

A bit of hyperbole on my part, Steve. :smiley: There is quite a bit of iconoclasm on this forum, and sometimes I feel the urge to protect the “ancient springs”.
I just replaced my copy of ‘Til We Have Faces’, for the second or third time - people can get their own danged copy from now on, I’m not going to lend it out any more :laughing: