The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Atonement by firstborn888

There are so few cases of “of God” being found in connection to {orge_} there, that it is virtually certain the phase/term {theou} isn’t original to the text. The UBS committee doesn’t even bother to comment on the question.

Unlike Rom 1:18 where it is virtually certain that the phrase {orge_ theou} is original to the text.

And Rom 2:5-10, where the “indignation” (orge_) being hoarded up by the hard and unrepentant hearts of at least some of Paul’s readers (who believe the homosexual pagans back in chp 1 to be hopelessly condemned only to God’s wrath, without regard to their own guilt before God) in the day of “indignation” to come, is the just judgment of God Who will (there’s that phrase again!) be paying each one in accord with his acts: to those of faction and indeed stubborn to the truth yet persuaded to injustice, indignation and fury, affliction and distress on every human soul which is effecting evil, both of the Jew first and the Greek. There is no reasonable way to read the middle phrases (“indignation and fury, affliction and distress”) except as what God is paying as judgment on those who effect evil. (To continue with the relevant negative-judgment statements in vv.11-12: “For there is no partiality with God; for whoever sinned without law [certainly the Jewish scriptures by context], shall also perish without law; and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.”)

And again in 3:5-6, “Now, if our injustice is commending God’s righteousness, what shall we declare? Not that God, that One bringing on indignation, is injust!–according to a man am I saying. * May it not be being that!! Else how shall God be judging the world?” There would be no point to the comparison if God, in judging the world, was not bringing on His own indignation to “our injustice”. Our unjust judging of God (from v.4) is symptomatic of our injustice, as is our indignation; God’s indignation, however, is not unjust in His judgment of us in our injustice.

Again in 12:19, Paul exhorts his readers to be at peace with all mankind and not to be avenging ourselves but instead to be standing aside to indignation. (It’s clearly a “but”, {alla}; not a contextual guess at a “but” from {kai} or {de}.) Standing aside as to no indignation at all? No, “for it is written ‘Vengeance is Mine! I will repay!’ the Lord is saying.”

(This is aside from Rom 9:22, where the point seems to be that God is taking personal responsibility for patiently bearing up vessels of wrath, such as the Jews and Gentiles, constituting Paul’s congregation, have been toward one another by virtue of God’s plan. Much of the thrust of chapters 1-11 is that Jews and Gentiles shouldn’t be dissing one another as enemies of God while they are the righteous faithful ones, but that all who seek God are righteous and faithful, Jew and Gentile alike, and yet all have also fallen short and sinned against God.)

Admittedly, much of Paul’s point to all this is that God’s wrath, unlike human wrath, is aimed at restoration and reconciliation with the sinners, thus actually is just unlike the unjust wrath of human hate. (A point typically missed by Arm and Calv theologians, unless they dare to apply it to themselves perhaps. Not to those other sinners over there.) Nevertheless, while I don’t necessarily disagree with FB’s interpretation of the chp 5 reference to indignation, I can understand why “theologians” would “work” on the text here. Every other single place in Romans, talks about God’s wrath (except maybe in chp 9 and even there God has to be taking responsibility for the human wrath). But on the other hand, the whole point of God’s wrath everywhere else in Romans is to save us from what amounts to our hateful human wrath; so there is some ground for FB’s interpretation of chp 5 this way (which doesn’t immediately, or arguably in nearby context, refer to God’s wrath per se.)

I’ll have to gin up a reply to your most recent reply to me, FB, later. ‘Work’ work to do now. :slight_smile:

Incidentally, “imputed” in Greek has nothing to do with “imputed” in English; the latter term may not even appear in Greek. It doesn’t appear in Paul. The Pauline term occasionally translated “impute”, is only “reckon” or “take into account”.

(So for example God reckons or accounts Abraham’s faithfulness as righteousness–because it was righteousness, and God fairly judged it as that, despite the fact that the Law had not yet been given. Rom 4:1-3ff, with topical lead-in from chp 3. Paul is here arguing against a Jewish notion that only those who do the Law of the Torah can claim righteousness from God. Abraham was righteous long before the giving of the Torah, and so could do no ‘work’ in ‘keeping the Torah’ per se, nor considered the wage of God a debt that was owed to himself for being faithful. Still he was righteous in his faithfulness to God, and God judges him and rewards him accordingly.)

I doubt this will hurt your argument in the least. :slight_smile: I just thought you’d like to know.)*

Thanks for jumping in Jason. We all have various facets of the diamond that we see. I admit I love seeing progression beyond traditional orthodoxy. Having skimmed Jame’s theistic evolution writings and having read your insights and openness to consider progressive revelatory thinking I am very impressed with the spirit and attitudes here.

I will endeavour to remain open to learn at all times but admit I roll my inward eyes a bit when I see the same old orthodoxy being parroted over and over. I really balk at the idea that we must consider the biblical Paul, James, Peter etc. to be some kind of spiritual supermen - I do NOT believe their understandings are anymore inspired than some later writings or even yours or mine. In fact I’m stunned to realize how many think that the canon was something God himself sealed, especially since Jesus spoke nothing of a perfect book to come. I understand that there is a certain safety in building upon a set foundation but also a certain deadness/stagnation in reading the surface ‘facts’ laid out in scripture and trying to base all our current activities and understandings of what the early church fathers understood it all to mean. Look where that got them for so many centuries!!!

Anyway, thanks again to all here for the conversation :slight_smile:

Hi Byron,

I appreciate that you quoted many verses that encourage us to live a perfect Christian life. May I ask if you have ever met anybody who lives a perfect Christian life? Are you doing better than the Paul the apostle?

And my purpose of my quotes was to show that if Christians do sin, then they shouldn’t feel condemnation but godly sorry, which are two completely different things.

Didn’t Jesus appoint apostles and give them a special authority?

Hi Jason,
I realize I leap frogged over Jeff’s question directly onto my favorite horse and began blazing down the trail :blush:

Anyway Jeff - thanks for sparking this thread with your question and I think your point could be that if PS took care of it (all wrath was poured on Jesus in the rest of mankind’s place) then there should have been no more wrath from that time forward which is a great question (and of course a question which theologians have had thousands of years to come up with explanations for) :sunglasses: .

Many grammar school students and theologians see no big problem with this because the New Testament clearly teaches that the forgiveness and redemption is covenantal while faith is the condition for the covenant.

Hi James,
What you are saying has it’s place but (as always) I am looking to discover the core nature of reality as opposed to the status quo understanding and surface meanings. As practical as it may be, at some point we need to progress in our understanding OR things will not improve here on planet earth.

A gospel that merely ‘encourages’ perfection is useless.

Regeneration is the heart of the good news. God is literally generated inside of us and He cannot sin. Ephesians 4:24 “and to put on the new self, created to be like God” or another trans “And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness”

What I have seen put forth here and believe to be error (both here and in the Lucifer myth thread) is that all beings are free to learn and make choices to get better and eventually get things right. On a ‘biblical inerrancy’ site I’m a little taken aback by the apparent lack of understanding about new creatures in Christ, which are of Christ, which are in God (who is sinless). Am I just being too ethereal about these things? Would you mind addressing some of my points about this?

James, everything you are saying makes PERFECT sense and is very practical and can be found in scripture - yet on a deeper level it does contradict many other biblical teachings. Are we willing to dig in a bit?

That which is born of God cannot sin. But if any ‘man’ sin we have an advocate. Both of our views are right there and if you will take the time to dig in you will see that both our views are ‘correct’ but can only be so when viewed from vastly different perspectives (one good, Godly and the practical side, the other good Godly and the spiritual side).

edit Gosh James, when I re-read my post I realized: it’s hard for me too share without coming off as if I think I’m super spiritual or something. I don’t like to sound condescending and I do believe we all have our respective strengths and weaknesses. I’m just very focused in a couple of areas (a friend once commented “You’re like a river which is a mile deep but only an inch wide” :open_mouth: Anyway, thanks for putting up with my anti-orthodoxy even though I do believe my points here are scriptural. We may just be seeing different facets of the same diamond? Looking forward to your responses.

Just thought I’d chime in briefly here to say that I do understand and follow what you’re saying, Byron. Probably this is in large part due to the fact that a while back I was reading and listening to a lot of Gary Sigler, who makes many of the same points you do.

Sorry roofus - didn’t mean to ignore your question.

I really am not a good person to ask about that since I don’t believe Jesus came to found the religion of Christianity. I do believe that there is a ton of inspiration in the bible though, even though the info in it has been greatly misinterpreted and abused.

Thanks for chiming in. Sometimes I wonder if I’m speaking in a foreign language here or something :wink:

I’ve heard of Gary and I think I visited his site a couple of times last year. I’m curious enough now to go and read and listen some.

FB (old buddy),

I would say people are free in a sense to learn. It is not as though God is NOT a teacher. It is not as though Jesus does not say “because you chose freely” and it is not as though it is he who is faithful to COMPLETE the work he BEGAN in us. How he accomplishes this is whats debated.

Is it possible to be a new creature and at the same time be transformed by the renewing of our mind? I would assume that these things are only pictoral or metaphorical BUT TRUE, and should not negate one or the other. In other words, it is true we are BEING transformed and it is true we are NEW CREATURES.

If it is true we are already made perfect then are you being transformed? Some people hold that God does not change the old man but kills him and gives life to the new man (new creature, born again). Again, too literal for me. The idea being presented I believe is God is saving you.

Aug

Hey Aug!
I had the exact thought while posting (about the death and life as presented by me possibly being too literal). I pretty much agree with everything you are saying above, but - the reason I am driving the other side home so hard is that Christians (‘naturally’) identify with the old man, egoic self, darkened thinking etc. etc. when the Bible clearly states that where the real substance is concerned (unseen spiritual world) that the old things are passed away and ALL things are become new, that we are complete in him, created unto good works, jointly seated with Christ (is there sin where Christ is seated?), we have been made pure as He is pure by the hope within us - the list goes on and on and on.

So, if we would simply REST in the facts (by faith) in what God has done in Christ, and accept them as true then (I believe) it is a huge step toward accurately representing God’s core nature in the earth.

Really aug, these verses jumped out at me like lightening (from the beginning) and God placed on me no wrath or anger whatsoever (from the beginning) even though I was as rotten a person as they come (totally self absorbed druggie, lazy, homeless, loser). That perfect love and acceptance is what was so humbling because there was absolutely no doubt that it was 100% unmerited and undeserved.

In all my talk about anti-orthodoxy and not believing that Jesus came to establish a new religion called “Christianity” (I know real believers don’t think that either) I want to make it very clear that Jesus is EVERYTHING to me - everything. Also, I have no delusions about the selfish nature of ‘my’ animated clay but I also see clearly that I don’t live in subjection to those ‘beggarly elements’ AND I understand that it’s NOT ME!!! I am crucified with Christ, never the less I live, yet not “I” but Christ lives in me. How much clearer can it be said???

Hi Byron,

I appreciate your concern for everybody to understand perfection in Christ.

Yes, you’re being too ethereal about these things while you reject the complexity of the biblical position and frequently misrepresent my responses about biblical positions. I’ll address some of your points in this post, as I’ve done in many other posts.

I have been digging deeply into the complexities for many years.

I always try to look at all sides of the complexities. For example, I deeply appreciate the complexities in 1 John. I don’t perfectly understand everything in 1 John while I’ve made a lot of strides in last 25 years. I see this complexity that God makes us perfectly righteous while we still might sin and need to ask God for forgiveness. And these complex ideas are taught in many other places of scripture, some of which I’ve referred to in this forum during the last week. And there are many complexities in life that some people insist must be contradictions. For instance, many people insist that the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be true because they cannot understand how three separate persons can be God while there is only one God. I agree that there different facets of the diamond in 1 John while I have a glimpse of the different facets.

Perhaps it’s misunderstand?

FB,
Agreed, let me state, I’ve never doubted your devotion. On Tweb reading you was a breath of fresh air. I still hear your heart and still can’t help but just love you. However I think James is right concerning the complexities. Scripture is not so simple.

I’m one who believes the scriptures are built more on tensions then on harmonies. So I find that the balance is critical to understand. Yes it his kindness that leads us to repentance but I am one who believes it’s his wrath that breaks us of our arrogance. I don’t know how pantelists or U-Universalists can explain Hebrews explanation that God punishes his children because they are his children. I have freinds big on Aaron Budjen who argues hebrews does not mean what we think it means (and he’s an ECT guy) LOL.

Aug

Sure, and misunderstanding can be the fault of the communicator, the communicatee, or both. :slight_smile:

James,
I know there is a tendency on my part to put extra contrast onto statements others make, that is, if I see a leaning in a certain direction I tend to highlight the destination which I think the leaning is pointing toward in order to make a clear point. I don’t mean to be misrepresenting your responses but I’m also sure I have to some extent - by carrying them beyond what you said to where I perceive them going.

If that’s what you see me doing as well, it must be frustrating and I apologize. If I’m misdiagnosing what I’ve done then correct me further, please. :blush: Please don’t unleash any wrath on me though :open_mouth: :sunglasses:

The feeling is mutual Aug, thanks!

No doubt the scriptures are built on tension. There is a purpose for everything under heaven, but seasons change.

Going from the tension of the chaos in Gen. 1 through the tension of the ‘fall’ to the tension of the great flood to the law and the resulting judgements and to the cross and then the Gahenna judgement - YIKES! Yes, tension, disharmony, wrath, love, redemption, losing redemption :open_mouth: (by trodding underfoot the blood of the covenant).Yes, it’s been a fun chaotic ride - but alas, seasons change.

I guess it’s time to grow up now. To see the end result of all the suffering, all the wrath (“all thy waves and thy billows have passed over me”) and all the love (and more wrath).

Ps. 103:9 “He will not always chide

  1. (Qal)
  2. to strive 1a
  3. physically 1a
  4. with words
    1. to conduct a case or suit (legal), sue
    2. to make complaint
    3. to quarrel
  5. (Hiphil) to contend against

So - this is my complaint against orthodoxy: Christianity is living is a state of tension believed to be unbreakable. That is - until something breaks it (like armageddon or the great white throne judgement or (in some universalist’s eyes) maybe a few billion years of hell.

The reason I left the church is because modern Christianity is quickly becoming little more than a one big doomsday cult. “The muslims are going to come and kill us all. Obama in the antichrist. A great falling away is coming. God’s vials of wrath are coming because of people’s lack of faith” on and on and on it goes…

Well guess what - God’s wrath IS coming, but (like you said aug) it’s not what some (most?) suppose it is. It is not a wrath to destroy people, or even to punish people, it’s a wrath against root causes of evil. The night is far spent - the day is at hand.

Paul admitted he “saw through a glass darkly”. He spoke of a “face to face” to come. Knowing as we are known. He also spoke of things he saw which were “things unlawful to utter” (it wasn’t time yet).

FB,

I initiated the other thread on atonement (challenging P.S.), and for what it’s worth, here one guy’s perception. Your initial posts on the nature and existence of God’s “wrath,” and your assertion that, “flatout, God never judges anyone for evil,” sounded to me like an avoidance of some Biblical themes. But, as you amplified and clarified nuances in the Bible’s tensions, I see that you want to affirm a non-condemning God who is graciously devoted to our secure redemption, and I perceive that you are actually magnifying a theme which I also think is grand.

I suspect one watershed here for universalists who see our solid hope as graciously assured, is interpreting warning passages about negative or ‘wrathful’ consequences, as an expression of a loving, pedagogical , and restorative “discipline,” rather than as “retribution” or satisfaction.

Grace be with you (and it will),
Bobx1

Hi Byron,

I’m concerned that you say, “Please don’t unleash any wrath on me though :open_mouth: :sunglasses:” If I’ve done that or will do that, then that would be against what I wrote in the rules for the board. I assure you that this board doesn’t tolerate outbursts of wrath in posts from members including adminstrators.

Perhaps part of the issue is I’ve little time, which sometimes decreases the amount of tact in my writing. Sometimes a mere revision is the difference between tactless and tact. I apologize for any time that I’ve been short when I needed to spend more time with response.

I also plan to reply to some of your next post in this thread, but I’ve about two other posts ahead of that.

First off, I must answer JeffA’s question

And I’m sure it’s little surprise that, like Byron, I answer yes as well.

But what I’ve been trying to do for a few days is step back and wonder why it is that sincere bible loving/believing worshipers of Christ their saviour (insert here all the wonderful things generally believed about a loving God, Jesus His Son, Redemption, Salvation, etc etc) can differ so much on what seems to be a simple straightforward concept; Penal Substitution as basis for Atonement with God. Quite amazing when I stop to think about it.

So here’s a few thoughts…

It seems to me that in this conversation – and the conversation of Atonement and how God reconciles and saves us – there are two great truths, facts - if you will, which seem to be in constant tension with each other.

Fact #1 – God loves us with a depth we can only imagine; depths which we will explore, together in worship, for eternity. This love knows He will eventually win us over, and that our self imposed separations from Him are therefore temporary. His love then is legitimately seen as not only not holding anything against us, but as willing to do anything to accomplish it’s purpose.

Fact #2 – God hates sin with an incredible passion; it offends Him, angers Him, generates “wrath” in Him and simply cannot “stand” in His presence. Sin is therefore unimaginably serious; I’m guessing that even sinners themselves will grow, over time, to see just how awful their plight really was. So desperate that ONLY the force of God’s love can overcome it. (But overcome it does!!)

So when I find (not hard – because they are everywhere!) those who revere Penal Substitution models of Atonement, I try to remind myself that they hold this position because of how clearly they see Fact #2; and somehow Jesus paying the penalty confirms for them both that God takes sin seriously AND that will stop at nothing to save us – Fact #1.

So they are quite comforted by Penal Substitution understandings. They are not bothered one bit by the observation that sin simply cannot be “substituted” for; nor the fact that punishing sin solves nothing apart from an inner transformation of the sinner; nor the fact that transfer of punishment is simply not an allowable procedure under any know system of law; nor the fact that this model appears to make God’s forgiveness contingent on some outside force; nor the fact that there is simply nothing “just” about killing an innocent man; nor the fact that mere penalty payment means nothing – unless accompanied by Christ’s resurrection. Penal Substitution models clearly excel (or so it seems) at taking sin “seriously”.

On the other hand, perhaps the most frequent complaint about those who reject Penal Substitution understandings of the Cross is that they don’t take sin seriously enough; maybe even thus “pander” to sin; that they are soft, and sentimental, and maybe even weak; that they have taken the vast love of God and let themselves forget how serious sin really is; that there is a “tough side” to God’s love which – to be “just” of course! – demands payment of penalty. And so on. In other words, Penal Sub deniers are seen to have an overemphasis on Fact #1 at the expense of Fact #2.

So back and forth it goes. (I see signs this topic is heating up across Christianity…)

When we talk about righteousness being “imparted” to us, and that we must live “perfect” lives when we are in Christ, I see that as equally metaphoric as the metaphor of Penal Substitution. What it means is that, for all intents and purposes, God WILL TREAT US AS IF we are pure and clean and fully imparted with Christ’s righteousness. Which is to say He holds nothing against us. Penal Substitution understandings are just another way of making another mindset comfortable with God and help them KNOW that He holds nothing against them.

Basically then, when I hear a passionate defense of Penal Sub models, or an equally impassioned denial of those models, I can think of each proponent as emphasizing either fact #1 or fact #2. Why I REALLY LOVE the idea of Universal Reconciliation is that both facts seem of equal importance – as it should be.

(Not sure if that makes total sense but….)

TotalVictory
Bobx3