Great observations! Of course, as one who thinks a non-P.S. approach takes victory over our sin most seriously (as well as God’s unvarying love), there’s always more room to discuss how to best combine #1 and #2.
But I love your effort to see beyond the differing language of formulations and recognize the root issues and affirmations. I have no doubt that in practice, a P.S. believer can have deeper grasp of these profound realities of sin and God’s love than I, even when I think that this formulation is logically problematic for me. And I too find U.R. offers the best way to maintain a strong view and balance between the themes in tension.
As I read your last post in this thread (Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:35 am), I sympathize with some of your feelings about the church. And I appreciate your rejection of Unconditional Futurism. However, I see no existential evidence that any living person including yourself is beyond the tensions taught in the New Testament.
That’s my point James, the widely held belief is that nothing has changed existentially in almost 2000 years (and that nothing WILL change existentially until the destruction of the earth). A system of orthodoxy like this serves to cause and maintain a state of stagnation. If a certain *slant * is put on the NT (such as the unconditional futurism you mentioned) then the door is closed to anything new, especially things which are (seemingly) contrary. Sometimes the entire house needs to collapse for the door to open.
New worlds are framed by words and ideas. When someone brushes up against eternity and gets a clearer glimpse they are transformed by those thoughts and ideas and will tell what the have seen and heard.
The orthodox Jews THOUGHT Jesus was speaking completely contrary to the Torah, yet He was fulfilling it. In hindsight we see a long term plan (with Paul’s help) but yet put yourself in the ancient Rabbi’s shoes - even among the best of them very few had even a little clue as what was about to unfold or what the kingdom of God was really about (Nicodemus being a case in point).
Even though what I am saying may seem to go against the NT - it is actually the next stage of fulfillment. It’s all there - but just as the OT hid it’s pearls so there are mysteries emerging from the NT as well.
I would like to get into specifics of what people here believe about wrath and punishment.
In my experience I have heard many views. Earthquakes, plagues, disease are among what some feel God does to punish. Great fires, riots, wars would also be among the things I’ve heard presented as being (currently - in this ‘age of grace’) manifestation of God’s wrath.
The trick here is to make the judgements big and impersonal and elusive - then it’s easy to attribute them to God.
Try thinking of it in more practical terms for a minute:
God and a sinner end up in the same room together. What happens?
I admit your talented at pointing out some foolish extremes in the church in this present age while you teach about the complete fulfillment of the Messianic Age. That’s great. But you also neglect to teach about the battle we’re in today. A lack of balance can cause more of the disappointment and condemnation that you’re trying avoid. Teaching about the complete fulfillment of the Messianic Age has its place while we need to wise as serpents in this present age.
Just the opposite - I’m wanting to discover and show where the battle lines really are. Remember - I was a ‘church guy’ for over 30 years so I am as stunned as anyone by my present behavior
All I can say is the times they are a changin’. I am full of the wrath of God against abuse and oppression. Portions of the church are doing a great job but at the same time - some of the worst oppression of all is caused by the misrepresentation of God’s nature and the superstition propagated by religious systems.
I’m anxious to start the thread about what some of you guys think God is doing to people. Should be interesting.
As a man - I will admit to wishing God would blow up ALL the bad guys in Iran right now.
Again Byron, I have a keen appreciation for where you’re at, because I’m in much the same place myself. I still attend a conventional church, but only because I can see they are trying desperately to break out of the mold, and If (when?) they succeed, I want to be part of that success partly because the people there are very dear to me. It’s such a mixture still, though. I hear the pastor saying in one breath that we need to abandon tradition because it’s unbiblical, yet in the next breath will ‘defend’ tradition in some unbiblical way. It’s maddening. It’s so ingrained that even people who are aware of the problem often can’t see it.
I could be off base here, but I see it as the scriptural analogy of attempting to put new wine in old wineskins. Attempting to do so (as far as I can see) can only result in the rupture of the old wineskin system, and the “spilling” of the new wine. I think it is perhaps wiser in the long run to put the new wine into new wineskins at the start, rather than trying to make things fit into the old broken system. We desperately need to repent from dead works. As I see it, the institution just gets in the way.
It was tough for me to leave. There really are some great folks at my old place as well - many have been close friends even before I arrived there over 20 years ago (and they are still my friends but I miss seeing 'em weekly ).
What hurts the most is my old fellowship is among the best of the best - very high integrity, avoids politics and gossip and such like the plague, very progressive (door to door outreaches, outdoor concerts and services in local neighborhoods, practical helps as in food bank, active prison ministry) - but still… it’s drying up a bit (attendance wise). It’s like - if you’re not part of some big national trendy thing and don’t care to hangout with the ‘heavy hitters’ and big names you don’t get the participation. Other local fellowships that are low on integrity, money hungry, even majorly scandalous but have big shots coming in and such are overflowing - go figure…
I suppose I’ve only heard you talk about the end of tensions that are taught about in the New Testament. Anyway, Could you describe what you portions of the church that you think are doing a great job? I need to know that to dialog with you more on the atonement.
I know you posted this in 09, but if you still get notices of people inquiring, I want to express my thoughts on your thinking. I love it, and I think it is right on. Where can i read more by you? I hope this is forwarded to you from this chat site? Do you have a website? Let me know please. Thanks. joy
Glad I checked in! I don’t have a website and I don’t write a lot but I’m glad you enjoyed reading. Most of my rants are right here on these pages. Another cool site is mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/
Just now saw this
The ones doing a great job are the ones providing practical humanitarian assistance. The ones doing a terrible job (IMO) are those who push their ideas about being right with God through correct beliefs/proper doctrine.
alot of what you’re saying makes sense to me. i feel the discipline of God that we may undergo has to do with “pruning” us. this is for our benefit as well as that of those around us, and will enhance our relationship with God also, so while this may not be a fun thing to go through, it’s not a horrid condemnation like some teach.
i personally see that loving discipline extended to all creation, and a vital part of that process that reconciles us, that already has reconciled us. to fill up “what is still lacking” in Christ’s death, as Paul put it somewhere…not that anything is lacking in reality, but in application we are slowly changed in this life, rarely suddenly.
Got it! The point would be that the spirit in the sinner has returned to it’s source (“God and a sinner end up in the same room together”) and so there would be no more sense of alienation. The “wrath” was the metaphoric expulsion from paradise which started the whole experience of contrasts (ie: good/evil, light/dark etc).
The alienation is in the mind of the one experiencing the symptoms of apparent alienation.
I can’t see how any scientific endeavor could either prove or disprove the existence of a soul. We’re back to step one where our belief is either more reasonable or less reasonable to ourselves and others, but nothing more.
Fascinating writings and I’m off to read a bit more.
Right; I don’t think the place of science is to prove or disprove anything like that. Science is largely about mechanism, so I think at best we might get an idea from it of how something works, but not necessarily whether something exists or not. Quantum physics among other things have shown us that the universe we inhabit is far stranger than we have previously imagined, even if the explanation is still inadequate.
).
- go figure…