The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Authority and Obedience

Practices Christian Living
#1

I know that it is something that many in this day and age have a hard time with, including myself. It seems like it is seen at best a kind of necessary evil we tolerate, but dont really care for. I would say that we have two popular definitions of authority. A) Someone who for whatever advantage they have claim the entitlement to have power over others, and punish those who dont obey, or B) Someone who has shown themselves knowledgeable about a certain matter and has proved themselves trustworthy, and therefore someone worth listening to.

Today, the first type of authority is what most people have a problem with, and for good reasons. As no one wants to be lorded over, and coerced against their will, let alone threatened with punishment. Plus authority can be seen as degrading, in the assumption that someone elses will is superior to others, or that the authority in question knows whats best for other individuals than the individual themself. Then, people feel others get into authority through illegitimate means, like wealth, brute bodily strength, charismatic persuasion, or having some military might.

I find that the problem we have in relating to God as being in authority is in thinking of God as one being amongst others, and just so happens to be the most powerful being, and therefore has the full right to decide how things will be, based on pure might and lordship alone. This seems like the basis of the hardcore Infernalists. This has lead me to wondering if we are trying to understand the Authority of God in an ultra rationalistic way. As in a kind of looking at God as one power amongst other powers, but happens to be the first and most powerful power, and sole owner of creation, and therefore entitled to act however barbaric he wants to towards his creation.

However, this view of authority seems to match of God in a crude fashion. As traditionally understood, God is the source of all existence, and essentially the sole definer of what is good and true. But not some arbitrary choosing of some petty preference, like some earthly petty control freak who claims the right to tell people what is good based on their own preferences.

#2

The idea you express is simply one view of the divine nature, but is it an accurate view? Has God taught us that we must obey simply because He is all powerful and we must or else? Or did He send His son as a suffering servant, yield Himself into our unrighteous hands, praying Father forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing- and thus win us by love.

Is God an arbitrary taskmaster, or is that the nature of another, lesser god?

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

We recognize how God works through looking at Jesus in the gospels.

Jesus expressed Himself by washing His disciples feet, and He told them,

Mat 20 “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

You are right, people do not want to be lorded over, especially by other men, but Jesus was not made Lord by right of His absolute power. He was made Lord because of His absolute love and the humility of His service to God and man.

Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

A view that God desires us to submit and obey just because He is God Almighty is a failure to understand the internal being of the I AM- His divine nature, and His purpose for everything, which is fellowship, communion, love and unity among all His creation. In order to achieve this He sent His Son to show us the way to love.

Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Everything in heaven and earth, reconciled- God’s original purpose, accomplished through Christ crucified, the purest expression of who God is and how He works and why we are called.

2 Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

#3

Very much so. Well said, Eagle’s Way. :slight_smile:

#4

I still wonder why is obedience so difficult? I dont know if its just our own natural and automatic conception of obedience, where you willingly surrender everything that makes you yourself over to someone elses ego. Like a scenario where you let someone break your will. In our natural view of obedience, we are acting in self interest, or are sacrificing ourselves to the pleasure of another. It does seem hard to believe that obedience to God is dignifying, liberating, and fulfilling. Plus, there is also the matter of how to tell whether you are following God or some idol. Hence the pride many can fall into in worship.

#5

At the time Jesus came to Earth, the people of Israel were looking for a promised son to take over as ruler and bring them back to power and glory as in the days of old. They were expecting someone like David or Moses. But instead, the King Himself, Lord of all lords, Creator of the universe, descended from heaven above in the form of a man( a son). He came to teach His sons His word and His ways, showing them how to become like Him by setting the example. For God doesn’t want to rule over our lives, but His will is that we all learn to become princes and rulers, in the Spirit of God, and to live fruitful lives of our own as one with Him. It starts with God’s word. The laws are given so that we know what not to do. This keeps us from sin. Doing the works of God helps our own spirits grow, and as God’s Spirit guides us, we continue to grow and mature until the laws are no longer necessary. This doesn’t mean that they no longer apply to us, but that we will be following them automatically out of love and respect for God, for ourselves and others, and for life itself. For we will have become sons of God. Our spirits are then free to fly, and we are ready to rule our own lives and have dominion over the earth as God decreed in the beginning.
Genesis 1:27-28 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

#6

I agree that it can be hard to kno if you are serving the one true God or some idol patched together in religianity with pieces of His words and His name.

However, if you know Jesus as I do it is not at all hard to believe that obedience to God is dignifying, liberating and fulfilling. Quite the opposite.

Knowing Him is the key…not relating to Him thru the various religious distortions of man, He is love personified, freedom personified, full of grace and truth, the radiance of the Father’s glory and the exact representation of His nature.

In order to find the treasure hidden in the field one must buy the field.

#7

I believe this question delves into one of the most basic aspects of our faith.

Surrender to God our will, in exchange for His. Give up our life, so we may lose it, yet gain the life he designed for us, since before time.

It is dying that we are born to eternal life…not just in the dying of our body, but in the dying of our will and self.

I believe there is going to be some of the ‘old man’ in us, who struggles with this. But, the more we see what God can and does do in our lives, the more we realize that in Him is our freedom and joy and hope.

…19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Galatians 2:19-21

23And Jesus responded to them, saying, ‘The hour hath come that the Son of Man may be glorified; 24verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit; 25he who is loving his life shall lose it, and he who is hating his life in this world — to life age-during shall keep it; 26if any one may minister to me, let him follow me, and where I am, there also my ministrant shall be; and if any one may minister to me — honour him will the Father. John 12:23 - 26 (YLT)

#8

I have been wondering if we are too often thinking of surrender to God as surrender to something external from yourself, and in a way competitive with a mindset “If God wins, I lose”. I read in the book “The inescapable Love of God”, and how on the deepest level, our will is Gods will. There is also a series of books by the Linns, grounded in Ignatian Spirituality, two specifically focusing on Vocations, being Sleeping with Bread, and Healing the Purpose of your life. But the heart of the books is to look at interior movements, to see where we most felt close to God, and refers to these as consolations. I think that when people think of Gods Will, they think of something in competition with happiness, joy, pleasure, life, fulfillment, dignity, and freedom. Rather than acknowledging that these are all experiences of God.

I think that the problem we have with surrender is that we want too little, and can get attached to one small piece rather than the whole deal. For example, the problem with lust is not the pleasure and sexual feelings, but the absence of self giving, genuine love, and power to give life. But this has got me thinking how much of life is trial and error. Since we do not always know what is truly best for us. Like how people can easily jump into marriage, due to strong feelings, or wanting to end a relationship over one argument.

#9

I have wondered whether obedience to God parallels obedience to man. Since obedience to man can be enslaving. I know this is a popular theme in Disney Movies of the 90’s, where there is competition between the main protagonists will, and the will of some form of authority or convention. It always tended to make the will of the protagonist to be more loving, personal, and meaningful, where the will of the outside authorities and collective society were seen as shallow, arbitrary, egotistical, narcissistic or ignorant.

Yet we do have passages that can be used to promote mindless authoritarianism, such as Ephesians 5, Romans 13, and 1 Peter 2.