The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Being Displeased with the Most High God

Do you ever feel like God may as well be the Deist clock maker, an apathetic and emotionless deiform? That he’s never around for you when you actually want him? Almost as if he were purposefully taunting you, holding himself away from you like a tyrant saying to a starving man;

“Somewhere in this room is bread for you to eat…I can give it to you, and I know you’re starving, but I’ll let you dredge up every stone, and every beam to try and find it. You might die long before you ever even smell the scent, if it doesn’t go stale on you first. Haha, what fun it shall be to see you desperate…Go forth! Go forth and feed your hunger on the imagination and hope of bread!”

Do you ever find yourself feeling guilty, and thankless because you’re angry at the situation, the starving scenario and the breadless seeking? Thinking to yourself; “Well at least I have the chance to seek bread, at least there is bread, at least he loves me to give me the hope of bread.”

…But deep down inside you’re bitter…violently displeased because it feels like your “relationship” the promise of Christianity has been little more than trying to stay in love with someone whose only conversation with you is through old, dusty, half-encrypted archives of text messages he gave to other people thousands of years ago?

Do you ever find yourself displeased when others belt out their testimony day after day; “Oh how Jesus appeared to me! We spoke for hours! He held me, touched me, embraced me!” Then find yourself guilty because you’d sooner break the neck of the testimony giver than listen to yet another driveling gush story about how God loves them so much more than he seems to love you?

Do you ever find yourself smiling on the outside, but glaring on the inside because people speak in tongues, and prophesy, and fall on the floor, and all of what that is supposed to imply - “the touch of God” - and when you want to experience God like that they tell you “just ask for it” and when you do you’re sitting there like an idiot, because nothing happened?

Do you ever find yourself feeling like God finds pleasure in giving others novel sized words of knowledge, or visitations from prophets, or angels, or what have you - and all you seem to get is a fortune cookie phrase’s worth?

Do you ever feel like you’re “just not being thankful enough” because you actually feel slighted by the complete wealth gap of God-touch in your life compared to others?

Do you ever feel like you shouldn’t even be honest about these feelings, “lest you lose thy reward, or blaspheme”?

Do you ever feel like Heaven is a mockery; feeling like the whole dome of it is made of cruel, frozen iron - delicately painted with prints of soft clouds, draped with gentle silken azure fabric?

Do you ever feel guilty for railing against God in your head, and plotting strange and futile plans - imagining yourself some little insect of a thing charging the gates of Heaven to tear them down and have your audience at last, slaughtering angels if they stood in your way - just to give God a piece of your mind, to see him at last, and throw all of your distaste at how he seemed to never want to show Himself to you, but lavished himself on the whole Earth?

Do you ever feel like the Devil himself, for wanting to see God?

Do you ever find yourself feeling like God is purposefully silent towards you, begrudging to give you ease, or answers - making you wait, and wait, and wait, and wait; wringing you like a worn out rag to squeeze out the very last drop of thankfulness, and worshipfulness - almost as if to make you purchase his blessing with trial after trial - while he throws himself at others freely and with abandon?

Do you ever feel like he gives people exactly what you’ve asked for, and seems to make you scrounge for the hand-me-downs?

Do you ever feel like your whole life is a damning exercise in constantly repeating to yourself; “I trust him, I trust him, I trust him…” like a muttering mantra when you can’t help but notice the growing bitterness against Heaven steeping up inside of you?

Do you ever feel like the one thing you want from God, is the one thing he just won’t give you?

Do you ever feel like God likes to play keep away? When you want it, he won’t give it to you, when you decide you don’t want it, he gives it to you…“maybe”…? Or that he waits until you push down your standards until you go from asking for say…a prayer for gold, to asking for a prayer for bronze?

Do you ever find yourself wanting to back hand other Christians with a large sledge hammer for how thoroughly unhelpful they are, or sycophantically idiotic they can be?

Do you hate how these “Spirit-filled” kings and priests answer every thing with the default "Just give it all to Jesus! :smiley: :wink: :smiley: :mrgreen: " or “If you open your Bible…and really study His inerrant, wonderful, beautiful word, and…and…and…if you ask for His Wisdom…and ask for his blessin’ 'pon yer study…He’ll give you alllll the answers you’ll ever need.”

Do you ever find yourself tempted to burn every Bible you own, because you can’t stand how it is little more than a reminder that the closest thing you have to a direct line to God is a bit of canon attributed to be infallible, but constantly fought over, warred over, and weaponised?

Do you ever find yourself wanting to tear yourself apart out of the frustration of being aware of the six billion plus incompatible views, experiences, and epiphanies all competing on a violent war ground each claiming to be the truth? Do you ever find yourself hating the idea that you can’t trust your experiences with God, even if he were willing to give you the experiences you’re wanting to begin with? Because you don’t know whether or not your experience will be any more valid than the nut-case who swears Jesus appeared to her and saved her from Demons masquerading as Aliens and UFO nephilim spirits claiming to be some occultic cosmic ascended masters or what not? Or any more valid than the idiot pastor who sits up there on his pulpit throne and spouts out about how he saw Jesus and had a vision of Eternal Hell if he didn’t preach this or that nonsensical message?

Do you ever feel like all of your faith is the thin veil of a farce? Do you ever feel like the whole world is nothing but a gaggle of ignorant idiocrats - and that you are one of them, and perfectly hopeless in your idiocy? That even if you did have something profoundly true, it would be lost under the garbage of every religion, anti-religion, philosophy, politic, idea, and otherwise?

Do you ever find yourself just plain tired of trying? But knowing…that there isn’t anything but emptiness if you quit?

Do you ever find yourself feeling like the step-child of God, despite all your want to be what you were supposed to be?

Do you ever find yourself hating everything to do with the whole argument surrounding God; hating Atheism just as much as you hate Deism, and Theism of all of their kinds?

Do you ever get to the point, that even if you did finally have that experience with God, it would feel utterly soiled to you because of “how late” he was? Like you’ve been snubbed by your date every time you ask to go out to dinner, and then finally she (or he) shows up, showing up late, and then the dinner only lasts for about five seconds before the date rushes off into the invisible bathroom and leaves you again groping in the hateful darkness and silence for the next thirty years, while all your happily married friends are sugar-vomiting every kind of; “Oh just be patient you silly, you just keep on trusting and it’ll all work out good for you.”

Do you ever feel like God is constantly a day late and a dollar short? Do you ever feel like Satan himself for even thinking the previous phrase? Do you ever feel like you’re caught in some wicked form of irony, where God is like; “Op! Nope…not going to do it now, I was going to give you an audience, but noooooo! You decided to say that…you weren’t perfect in your waiting, so never mind. You lose, good day sir!”

Do you ever feel like you shouldn’t even talk about these problems, because “at least you aren’t starving in Africa” or “At least you aren’t living on the streets”? Do you ever feel like you shouldn’t even talk about these problems because you’re afraid God might get mad at you and make you “starve on the street in Africa”?

Do you ever feel like you just “can’t do a damn thing right, damned if you do - damned if you don’t”?

If so… we sure hope this forum is of some help! :slight_smile:

Great post, Lef.

Did you just improvise that whole thing? Wow.

Amazingly, I just read that whole thing…and my answer is, “Yes!” It’s probably rare a person has never felt many of your sentiments, unless maybe they aren’t very reflective. Hang in there buddy!

This part made me laugh! :laughing:

Well said Lefein.

I find it helpful to remember that half the population is more gullible than average.

Wow! :open_mouth: :open_mouth: Have you been spying in my head? :confused:

Yes,yes, YES! I hear you brother. I wish I could put down my thoughts like this. You have writen what I have thought many times.

Ilike the one about backhanding someone sometimes :blush: :mrgreen:

This could be psalm 151

Yearning for God in the Midst of Distress
To The Chief Musician
A Psalm of Lefein

I hear echoes of the laments of David:

The deep calls unto the deep

When my heart is overwhelmed;
Lead me to the rock that is
higher than I.

Well written Lefein :slight_smile:

Hang in there buddy

Lol, I’m just glad I’m not alone in my thoughts I guess! :laughing:

Oh brother, you are NOT alone! :laughing:

Ah yes- the Dark Night of the Soul. Perhaps a place we all live at some time/most of the time. Some very inciteful remarks that very descriptively hit the exact spot, Liefen

The only thing I’ve found of slight comfort is an observation made by C S Lewis in, I think, “A Grief Observed”; when he describes the door of heaven seemingly closed or slammed in his face when he needed it most and when hope seemed to be proffered when his wife was sick, only to have it dashed at the last.

His final conclusion, which I think he arrives at later when the pain has eased slightly, is:
Who exhibits greater faith- he who has the miraculous occur and the prayer clearly answered or he who still believes in spite of the apparent closed door?
He suggests, I think, that the latter case more closely resembles Christ in the garden and on the cross when appeared forsaken by His Father.

Therefore, the forsaken more identifies with Christ by his continued faith.

I hope I’ve summarised accurately Lewis’s thoughts. It’s some years since I read this.

Having said this I’ve rarely wanted to share this with someone who is experiencing the Dark Night of the Soul for fear of sounding trite.
Rather like telling someone who’s grieving that the pain will ease in time.

And I have to say, a slight concern at the back of my mind, that if I boldly state this, God may test me by applying the situation to me and expose me as a hypocrite!

Which begs the question- what type of God do I believe in?

S

“you lose! Good Day Sir!”

You STOLE Fizzy lifting drink! You…get…NOTHING!

“The Brutality of Grace” - the fact that God keeps teaching us… long after we would BEG Him to stop. And however “high up” you get, God WILL raise the bar! Jesus himself was taken to the place where he cried “God why have you forsaken me?!”. The servant isn’t greater than the Master, so we aren’t getting off easy.

A friend once said “If we can just get over this hump, it’ll be all downhill from there”. I said “that’s BS. It’s all a hump. You just keep putting one hand over the other and climb. Then you die”. The LIE is that it’s ever easy.

Israel MEANS “wrestles with God”! He WANTS people who wrestle with Him.

These three remain, Faith, Love, Hope: the opposite of faith is fear, the opposite of Love is indifference, the opposite of Hope is self-pity.

"
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.
"

“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” Henry David Thoreau

Silence…

Sometimes you cannot hear because the silence is deafening. Or is it the noise coming of those around you keeps you from hearing the silence.

Seems you me that you are jealous of God, or rather jealous for God because of what you see others experience with God. But have you ever considered that those things that everybody else is experiencing, though you don’t seem to, is part of your experience as well? Secretly, or not so secretly, now that you’ve told us, you are envious because you don’t see the same in your life. That is quite understandable.

I remember a movie that came out in the mid-eighties called “Just One of the Boys”, about a girl who posed as a guy in one high school in order to write an article at another schools’ paper. Anyway, she had this brother who had terrible luck with girls and while trying to console her brother, she told him that sex really wasn’t that big a deal. His reply: “I’d like to form my own opinion.”

How are you going to do this when you are always looking at what other people are experiencing? Maybe you should embrace what others are experience, instead of shying away. If God decides to bless someone you know, God is also blessing you too, because He is demonstrating that He still loves us humans. We are all one body in Christ. Rather than pitying yourself, be glad that they are seeing God in your life.

I know, I know, it’s not the same. You want God to throw you a bone, too. That’ll cost you, though. It’s gonna cost all the bitterness you are harboring, all the resentment that you are holding, all the your self-seeking pride. The reason is simple. The joy of the Lord comes not by seeking and finding it, but by losing it. You are holding on to yourself as much as that rich young ruler is holding onto his riches.

You lose yourself by giving yourself away. Only then will you be found.

Interesting thoughts that so many of us must have felt at least during some point in the past - I’m just glad that, one day, for everyone, they’ll all be over! Oh, how the multitude of life will rejoice at that day after the last person says, “Yes!” and is brought to life! :slight_smile:

It would be really good if a massive work was popularised addressing these questions, based in firm, sure evidence … the Christian work that shrinks something like “The God Delusion” into insignificance!

The optimism that can come from rational and evidenced Universal Reconciliation is wonderful, and a principle that is intensely fruitful in apologetics and solving many common charges … thanks be to God!

Blessings to all, CC

Answers would be a lovely thing indeed lol

I doubt we’d understand his reasons. Not yet, anyway. I’m fond of the chess analogy. When I watch a Grand Master play, I rarely have even the vaguest clue why he moves one piece rather than another.

when i was growing up in Canada, we infrequently had these so-called waves of revival. the “Toronto blessing” was one such example.
i went to these meetings hoping to meet with God. some of them were connected with my school, and many of the most affected were people that weren’t all that nice. looking back, if i feel generous, i can see that my awkward social skills didn’t exactly encourage niceness…but still. i observed nasty behaviour from them, and then saw the same people falling over shaking as God did all sorts of nice things to them, which left them profoundly…unchanged.

i only ever felt a bit of warmth. i now know that almost all of that was psychosomatic. i realise that in a certain emotional climate, with an impressive speaker and emotional music, certain susceptible people (or ones that wish to appear holy) will manifest certain things that they expect to happen.
i’m pretty stubborn. i know that i’m not that vulernable to atmospheres etc. but i had to learn that. at the time, i felt a few conflicting things…mostly i hoped that God would help out in the situation and cause everyone to be nice (dream on!), but i think i also felt a bit desparate, and a bit frantic…God wasn’t touching me, and i was TRYING! these not that nice people weren’t trying, but they appeared to be deeply affected.

this isn’t to say that i had no experiences at all. there was a rather big one where God revealed to me that i hadn’t actually committed the unforgiveable sin, and that He was still there for me. but mostly…a bit warm, a bit fuzzy…generally nice mood, and that’s it.

since those years i’ve come to believe that such situations manipulate the emotionally vulnerable. i don’t see a huge degree of REAL change in people as a result, and i do wonder what God would possibly get from reducing a crowd to giggling, moaning, screaming, and twitching. but i’ve also realised that people do go to genuinely meet with God, as they are under the impression He is there, when really, He’s ALWAYS with them, and will help at any time…though rarely with a big emotional explosion. however, if someone expects God, if someone really needs Him…He can choose to meet them there. so those meetings etc are not a total waste…but i do sometimes feel God chooses to meet with people DESPITE the surrounding circumstances.

right, so most of my life, i’ve had few experiences with God on any kind of supernatural level. i’ve learned to distrust voices or words in my head, as they’re (in my case) wishful thinking. i’ve had to rely on Biblical inerrancy (though i stretch that a bit here and there) but mainly on experience. God has never let me slip away…He’s never let me get in trouble so deep i couldn’t get out…in fact i’ve been through some stuff where the outcome really surprised me, and looking back i had no cause to worry. does this come free with Jesus coming down and giving me hugs all the time? never. i just have not had that experience. nor would i trust it. i may actually be a bit cynical of somethings, but God seems to know me and respond to me in ways that work for me. it’s taken years to work any of this out though… and some times i was so angry with God for some things that were allowed to happen that were abominations…and perhaps worse that He allowed me to learn of them.

i’ve found myself hating Christians that keep talking about this or that happy clappy experience…or people talking as if they’d experienced things i knew from my own experience to be false. but of course i couldn’t say anything…i can’t damage their faith…plus it’d just make me out to be the bad guy!

on the flip side, my experience of God never letting me down has led me at times to tell others to trust Him…which may’ve sounded flippant to them. i must keep my mouth shut when people are suffering, else i become like one of Job’s insensitive friends!

i don’t know…i feel God rarely speaks, because just as the air molecules move when we speak, so does reality move when He does. thus any word from Him can change…everything. He picks and chooses His words and His timing very carefully.
i tend to “hear” Him when i realise something that needed to happen has happened, or that yet again i’ve been rescued from something.

i have no idea at all if this helps or if it resonates at all! just my frustrations and lessons learned…it worked for me, it may not for you…as you so aptly say, 6 billion views and opinions are all fighting it out…

Nottirbd, i like the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Terry Pratchett references!

I’m a pretty even-keeled person, not experiencing high-highs and low-lows, but I do understand facing what others have called the “dark night of the soul”, or the “valley of the shadow of death” where it seems there is no light, no reason, no comfort. God seems distant and uncaring. Thinking on this reminded me of what Peter wrote:

“So don’t lose a minute in building on what you’ve been given, complementing your basic faith with good character, spiritual understanding, alert discipline, passionate patience, reverent wonder, warm friendliness, and generous love, each dimension fitting into and developing the others. With these qualities active and growing in your lives, no grass will grow under your feet, no day will pass without its reward as you mature in your experience of our Master Jesus. Without these qualities you can’t see what’s right before you, oblivious that your old sinful life has been wiped off the books.”

I do find comfort and grace in times of worship though, times when I worship God because I trust He’s worthy though I’m certainly not feeling it the time. And usually I’ll get just one thought, one concept, one thing that’s like one drop of water on the tongue of flaming thirst. Sometimes it takes much time in prayer, worship, reflection before that drop comes, but it eventually comes.

One of the most comforting phrases in the Bible that I’ve found is “and it came to pass”. In the middle of the pain, in the middle of the winter of our souls, I trust that Spring is coming. And when Spring is on us and the Gardiner breaks up the hardened ground of our hearts, and plants new seeds, I trust Summer’s coming when things are sunny, joyful, growing and fruitful. And I know Fall’s coming when the harvest is joyous and it seems like everything you do prospers. But I know this too shall pass and Winter’s coming again when I’ll wonder if it will ever be Spring again!

“And it will come to pass”.

Corpselight said:-

I have to say that much of what you said applies to me too and I relate to the above statement.
Also:-

lol- I relate to this too.

There was a time I felt (and still do sometimes) that it is often happening for others but not for me; though being a cynic even from quite a young age, I suspect that at times experiences are in their heads or it’s like the story of the Emporer wearing no clothes- nobody wants to admit it’s not happening for them.
Having said this I haven’t really experienced much of the penty/charismatic type churches but I’m speaking of revival meetings or times of ‘spiritual emphasis’ etc.

I have come to the conclusion that God deals with each of us as individuals and my relationship with Him wont be the same necessarily as someone elses; just as I love my children equally, but share differnt things with each and have a different type of relationship with each.

I believe God works on a very personal level but those claims of God finding a parking place or some seemingly trivial answer to prayer- I wouldn’t discount these experiences, I have had times when I’ve felt this myself, but find it hard to believe that God finds me a parking place but doesn’t find a meal for someone starving in Africa; also his child even if they aren’t aware of it themselves!

By the way I like this discriptive phrase:-

Thanks for your thoughts.

Sherman said:-

Thanks for these thoughts too they bring great comfort.

Cheers
S

Sherman, wise words as always!
Sturmy, thanks mate! i agree :slight_smile:

Lefein,
You had me laughing hysterically! You, like me, are so gifted at overstating the obviously taboo thoughts that every human has but, mostly keep to themselves or outright deny.
You are such a kick!

Lol, well I figure - it is sometimes best to get things out in the open. Secrets have power over us that even devils don’t, I believe. Which is why I try to be brutally honest about things that are burdening me.