Hi Bart,
You’re right, in conversations recently with my pastor, he said more than once, “What about Osama bin Laden?” And reading what you’ve just written, I’m thinking I didn’t give enough attention to that concern. I don’t have a problem with that one, but I can see how others would, and I haven’t been sensitive enough to that.
Thanks,
Sonia
It happened big time, yesterday. We had just finished singing a couple of quite Christian Universalist choruses: “Shout to the north and the south, sing to the east and the west; Jesus is Savior to all, Lord of heaven and earth” and “One thing remains - Your love never fails, it never gives up, Never runs out on me,” when a well loved church elder, filling in for a vacationing pastor, proceeded to give a full blown ECT sermon on death and hell!
I will say that he was completely faithful to the party line (Reformed Church in America). What was particularly interesting, however, was his desire to answer questions from the congregation! No one, including me, felt it necessary or appropriate to ask questions or, in my case, start an argument, during a worship service. He addressed issues such as, “How will it be possible to be happy in heaven, even though you may have loved ones in hell?” and “Will a Christian who commits suicide go to heaven or hell?”
I will admit that I had to bite my tongue to avoid asking a few choice questions; but I was pleased, in a way, that the topic had been broached, perhaps increasing awareness and raising some questions in people’s minds.
What would you have done? Would you have taken the opportunity to ask questions of the lay preacher? 
Hi Carrots
Personally I would like to think I would have asked the pastor some questions about the apparent inconsistency in his theology. But I can see your dilemma. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to make some rhetorical remarks, musings even, along the line of “it does seem strange that we sing about Jesus being saviour of all but we also preach eternal damnation for some” - as opposed to putting the poor chap on the spot, as it were.
Remember, most of us Universalists - including me 
- used to believe in a hell of some sort. And breaking out of that orthodox paradigm takes some guts.
Good luck with it mate
Peace and love
Johnny
What church do you go to, bro? Maybe I could check it out sometime if it’s UR friendly 
have to say, if a priest, pastor or elder or any other man-ordained, trumped up pharisee tried to command me not to speak…i would tell him where to get off.
only God has that kind of authority. i don’t bend the knee to nicolaitans (conquerors of the laity), nor should anyone else. we are all fellow servants.
saying that, i’d be extremely cautious about telling anyone about UR until i was sure they could handle the conversation.
but if someone gives me a gag order and i’m off like a shot, sand shaken off sandals.
if that doesn’t seem “loving”…well too bad. 
Jesus was similarly considerate of the delicate feelings of the scribes and teachers of His day
I second that
And Scott, by the way, I’m sort of in a bind myself about this kind of thing…
To understand some of my situation, you can check out this thread here:
evangelicaluniversalist.com/foru … =33&t=3370
I haven’t got any gag orders or anything (not many people there know yet anyway), and even if I did, it wouldn’t mean anything to me anyway, because I don’t see, much like James (aka corpselight), that anyone has spiritual authority over me other than God, so it wouldn’t matter to me, and I wouldn’t abide by it just to make them happy (though dirtboy’s advice is very wise)… Plus I don’t consider myself a member at the Baptist church anymore, even though I still am technically, at least on paper…
I’m planning on writing the pastor an e-mail sometime soon, see how things go…
Anyways, there are churches out there that are very open to EU/UR… most of them are liberal though, and if you’re more conservative (can’t say that I am, but hey, we’re all different ) you might not be comfortable with them…
For instance, I’ve visited a United Methodist Church nearby a few times, and they are very open to EU/UR…
Even the pastor, Jim Frisbie, leans in that direction. 
The denominations of the United Church Of Christ as well as the Disciples Of Christ, and some Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, and Quaker churches, among others, are open to EU/UR…
But, like I said, I’m not sure if mainline/liberal churches would be your thing… 
I have heard of a denomination though that is fairly conservative but also very open to EU/UR, called Grace Communion International, that have at least one or two churches in each state, I think… Alex could tell you more about it if you were interested… who knows, there might be one nearby…
But like you said, having to up and move to another church may be hard on your family, so it’s definitely something you’ll have to really think about and pray about…
Well, if nothing else, at least you’ve got us to talk to and be open with about the hope you have.
I’ve kind of come to think of this forum as my ‘virtual church’.
Blessings to you bro, and may God lead you and guide you in the right direction
Matt
Lefein,
I think I’d start asking around among the older gentlemen in your small church and see if I could figure out who your preacher was talking about! (And if you couldn’t find anyone, you’d have at least inductive confirmation he was talking about you.)
Were you talking to me or David? The church I attend (for the last 20 years) is a conservative baptist church, and not UR friendly…
Which reminds me, we need to try and get together soon!
Oh 
Sorry, I guess you meant something like ‘those guys should get together and go bowling’
Yeah, that would be great
DaveF and his wife live in the Portland area as well… maybe we can all get together sometime.
Hey everyone, thought I would put in my two cents. I also feel restricted on telling people about this because I am afraid of what they will say. I live in a strongly conservative county which means they have a belief system kinda like the religious south. (and it seems to be like I live in the south sometimes.) And so they aren’t really open to it. I even have a friend that is going to Notre Dame and may become a priest and I would love to talk to him about it but I have debated him before and feel it would be worse than that. I have actually shared my discovery with only three people, one is atheist, one is agnostic leaning towards atheism, and one that does believe in God but isn’t very religious. I wonder how I am going to go through my whole life with the knowledge of Universalism when I am only 18, we shall see in time.
you’re not alone in that. i’m not particularly good at confrontation (at least in person).
if it helps, alot of people are awesome Christians without UR. i know quite a few…if questioned, they do have to make some interesting leaps to justify how they reconcile the character of God with eternal hell…but they are unwilling to give it up. this doesn’t stop them serving God and loving people, so for me it’s not a massive issue. i’d like everyone to believe as i do, but if they aren’t the type of person who has to question the sorts of things i question, than maybe they don’t need it…they can just trust that God will get it right, however that looks.
i’m able to just be my normal non-conformist, liberal self as they know me anyway and the hope that all will be saved keeps me going in the faith.
I’m very hopeful for the future of EU. So many things change, you know. Five years ago I believed firmly in ECT. Two years ago I believed firmly in Annihilation (and what a relief after ECT!) Seriously, people who think, people who search will find EU. It is a concept whose time has come, and all we need to do is be patient, share when and where we can, and watch the hand of our Father at work.
However . . . if you’re in a church where they preach hell regularly, I guess I’d find another church. If they’re preaching it “at you,” be aware that they’re trying to help. Granted, it isn’t working, and they’re the ones in need of enlightenment, but their motives are probably good. I hope. Or maybe they just like telling everyone all the things they think they know and setting straight the “morons” who dare to think differently. It will likely help if you stay away from most Baptist and other reformed churches. Other than that, I’m not sure. I’ve never attended a church where hell was regularly preached – hardly even seldom preached – and I grew up in Florida. Such churches are out there. Even hell believers often don’t like to talk about it.
Swine will trample your pearls underfoot and dogs will turn and tear you to pieces. I always hesitate to use that because I don’t want to imply that such people are worthless. But I think the point of this saying is that swine are incapable of appreciating pearls, and dogs (at least middle eastern street curs) take outright offense at someone attempting to teach them holiness. My sweet doggies don’t mind being taught “holiness” so long as there’s food, or at least praise and petting involved, but that’s a different matter.
My advice, for what it’s worth, is to keep a low profile, only share when the Spirit leads you, and make sure you have an answer – that you’re able to defend with great competence the hope that you have from God.
If you’re interested in sharing the Blessed Hope, then don’t slide off into other controversial issues. You might get traditional church people to listen to you regarding hope beyond hell, but if you try to persuade them at the same time that they should champion gay marriage, pacifism, your brand of politics, etc., you will lose them. I promise. One issue at a time. The abolition of hell is hard enough to swallow on its own, however worthy your other disagreements may be. You’ll have to choose – ask God – and let Father take care of those other things, or at least you should wait until later.
Good thoughts, Cindy. I am not at a church where they preach hell regularly (else I would no longer be there), and even when it is brought up, it is euphemized as “going to a lost eternity”.
They are vehemently opposed to universalism whenever anything even approaching it is brought up, however. I have in passing heard many a snide remark aimed at Love Wins, for example.
I gave the pastor a copy of Hope beyond Hell approximately four years ago, and the result was a four week sermon series against universalism. (I was hoping for at least a more astute treatment of it, actually engaging the points made, but all I heard was the same old lame arguments I’ve seen refuted six ways to Sunday.) Sadly, they are just not yet ready for the real good news yet. They are so close in so many other ways, it would be baffling if I didn’t understand the blindness to it.
I guarantee you he never got past the first few pages. As soon as he found out what it was, I’ll bet he dropped it like it was a rattlesnake!
But seriously, a lot of people ARE becoming more open to it. Perhaps not pastors, but pastors aren’t as popular as they once were. Lots of people don’t have them (except in the early church form), and find they do quite well with plain old brothers and sisters.
Incidentally, way off topic, but my husband and I were hiking day before yesterday, and he stepped right over a rattlesnake. I heard a kind of vibrating noise – like change in the drink holder in your car. And I looked and there was this rattlesnake – must have been at least an inch in diameter (which is pretty good sized) slithering under the end of the log.
Too fast for me. I’ve never seen one in the wild before and was too shocked to do anything but say “Oh, Oh! A rattlesnake!” But I’ll bet he wouldn’t have done any better.
But yeah, I definitely didn’t want to get close to that boy. It was almost as scary as universalism!
Thank you sydney for all the good points! But I do not go to church anymore because I cannot find a good church in this very conservative county I call monroe.
Christ didn’t come to save you. He came to save us. It is impossible to be a solitary Christian, just as it’s impossible to expect a toe or finger to live alone in some bottle. Go to your local church. Don’t go shopping. You’re not called to be a connoisseur of fine churches, but to be a member of a local church full of weak, fallible, deeply annoying sinners. Don’t ask, “How can this church help me?” Ask, “How can I help this church?”
As for universalism, if it causes offense, don’t push it. God will make it clear in his good time. Don’t hide it either. Just say, “I believe God’s grace is greater than our sin”, and smile sweetly. Or, “I believe God is good, and knows what he’s doing.” Or, “I believe all things in heaven and on earth will be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ.” Or, “Christ holds the keys to death and hell, not to lock the prisoners in, but to let the prisoners out.”
Bingo! I’d bet you’re right, if I were a betting man. Knowing my pastor; at best, he skimmed it. More likely he looked at the bibliography and dismissed it. I seem to recall that he had a fairly “don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind’s made up” tone in the sermons. I even recall him saying at one point that it was something that he had “studied and settled years ago”. Well, I thought; time to take another look then, cause this ain’t your fathers universalism!
Oh, I know more people are becoming open to it! (Praise God). Many traditional pastors are just way too entrenched in the system (even those trying to break away from the system) to even want to “get it”. The funny thing is, it seems that a lot of the folks writing books in favor of universalism now were hardcore, dyed-in the wool fundies, (some even traditional-type pastors of various flavors) up until God smacked them upside the head with the truth.
Kind of reminds me of the apostle Paul, actually. Don’t tell me God doesn’t have a sense of humor!
lol, if it were me, i’d have been cooing over the poor thing as it desparately tried to get me to leave it alone!
a mate of mine and i encountered a female adder on a path in Cornwall, and the poor thing but on SUCH a display, but we kept at a safe distance and admired her!
sorry well off topic
it’s important to find a group of Christians that you can benefit from knowing AND that can benefit from knowing you too.
whether that’s a church or just regularly meeting up with people that encourage you in your faith, church can take any shape. i expect BrentBor that you’ll find other dissillusioned people if you turn over a few rocks! i found that in the UK if not in my home country, but who knows, i may’ve managed to find some there if i’d looked harder.
if a church is toxic, stay out of it…that doesn’t stop you being friends with those that go, though…maybe they’ll get something from your faith in a loving God, even if they don’t accept the doctrinal implications of that love YET.