The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Bible defames God by stating real retributive judgement??

Do you think what I’ve written below, is the gist of his argument? And if so, how would you answer??

*Adam wants to be God, which is an infinite offence because God is infinite. Therefore everyone gets debited with an infinite amount of sin.

However, the infinite God pays an infinite amount (Himself) to Himself & choses to apply an infinite credit to some people (the Elect).

The Elect therefore have no sin & so any punishment for them can’t be retributive, as that would be unjust.

The non-Elect still have an infinite debt & therefore can be infinitely retributively punished.

If everyone was Elect then the people who experienced real retributive punishment in the Bible have been unjustly treated, and that would defame God.*

we know that God does judge, both during and after this life/age. that much is clear in the Bible. even those who are His need refining. but we must examine the PURPOSE of this judgement. i don’t feel that the meta-narrative of the OT supports anything but Remedial Punishment, one of the key things that led to Universalism for me. the New Testament MUST do as well, because it is a BETTER covenant. if God could promise resurrection and restoration for the sinful nations in the OT, then He would be going against His unchanging nature not to act similarly in the NT.

punishment is not retributive (or not wholly), it is remedial.

One of my favourite passages about restorative justice is Hebrews 12.5ff:-

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,

nor be weary when reproved by him.

6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,

and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God;

(ESV)

good point on those scriptures, Drew…verse 15 could be a troublesome anti-Universalist proof text though LOL if it’s in our power to see that everyone finds grace

Thanks for pointing that out Corpselight! But the main point I glean from the passage is that the punishment/judgment/ discipline of God is that of a loving parent - always restorative, correcting and healing. I believe that principle must also apply to hell. We do have an important role in enabling others to experience and join us in promoting God’s grace now, but our failure to do so will not thwart the loving Father’s intentions for all his children indefinitely.

fully agree there!
i always had this issue with the OT promising restoration and reconciliation (often with no talk of repentance…just that it was GOING to happen…and many of those prophecies remain unfulfilled)…and the NT (through ECT goggles) promising endless torment if you didn’t accept Christ. there was a contradiction there i couldn’t reconcile. and now i know what it is…God’s wrath MUST be remedial in the NT unless He suddenly changed personality, which the Bible says He doesn’t do.

i’d also say that when Jesus talks about the way we must love our enemies, forgive 70 x 7 times, go the extra mile, turn the other cheek, and all this to be LIKE OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN, then i cannot believe that God has eternal separation of any kind in His great plan. His nature is to show mercy and forgive and restore. He has been angry, but He will show mercy.
His anger may endure for a moment, but His favour is for life.

This is not a God who punishes just because the sinner deserves it. He punishes, as you say Drew, those He loves, so that they may be healed, restored, matured, etc.

so that’s my answer. i don’t believe the Bible teaches 100% retrobutive justice. i believe it teaches restorative, remedial judgement.

If everyone was Elect, no one would be punished? From my reading of the Bible, God’s elect are often punished for their sins, and there’s no hint or whisper that this defames God.

This is what defames God: that all humanity is damned by the sin of one remote ancestor; that God chooses to save a few when he has the power to save all; that God demands we praise him for doing so.

I would like to say that I personally do not believe that God punishes in a retributive sense or is interested in retributive justice; it seems more plausible that God, as I think was mentioned, punishes in order to correct, in a loving and humane manner (but which still is going to be unpleasant at the time), using justice in a more restorative sense. In this, God punishes in order to improve, without any such idea as ‘infinite guilt’ or the like, but simply the amount necessary for each person.

In addition, I do not believe that people inherit guilt from ancestors; at most, sinful behaviour can be passed (through habit and teaching) from generation to generation, which can have a negative impact on children, but they are not blamed for this. All guilt is only gained by the personal abuse of free will, and then I believe that God punishes in a restorative sense regardless.

Also, just as Israel was punished and then restored, Christians are also punished for their own correction; the fact that a person is judged has a righteous purpose and serves God’s love in the end. Hence, even if we take away the idea of guilt, discipline can still be present, without injustice, in a restorative sense.

Which, according to continued traditional theology; Jesus was supposed to have thoroughly paid for, and suffered said infinite punishment for all of mankind. Grace is stronger than Sin, the Bible is clear on that - where sin abounds grace abounds more.

God elects people to believe, and by neglecting to elect all - elects many to disbelieve; and thereby elects many to eternal pain, punishing them with infinite punishment against them when he elected them to sin infinitely against him to begin with. He elects people to sin against him so he might punish them infinitely? Is it to prove to himself, and the elect, just how infinite he is?

That sounds an awful lot like a divine case of “entrapment”.

This is not the way God works. He is not a monster, any sane child can see how unfair it is, and rightly will say such a thing is not true of God.

A debt God thrust upon them without their permission or say-so, or choice in the matter; according to Calvinism especially.

The very idea of it makes God sound like a feudal lord, who captures land and forces the people to work as serfs, he elects a few to be vassals and knights, but the rest are left (and thereby elected) to be toilers in the field, owing a debt to their master, which if the master had not made them serfs to begin with they would not owe.

It also makes him sound like a cheater, a wicked loan shark, because his Son apparently paid all the debt of the serfs, but the feudal lord refuses to acknowledge the debt is paid, except for those few elect who were already his vassals and knights…when the dept (though including vassals and knights) was most specifically meant to pay the slave-debt of the serfs.

God is no feudal lord, but a fair king.

Also; Jesus paid everyone’s debt, the whole world. Not just a select few vassals or favourites. Calvinism grossly errs at this point especially.

Great post, Allan, and I especially like this bit:

… and this:

Sonia

how’s this for reasoning.

“where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.”

sin “abounding” implies it is not infinite. “abounding” means “existing in large amounts”. it implies a sense of growing, of bountifulness…in a bad way. if it was infinite, if any offense was infinite, then it would not abound, it would instead be ubiquitous.

now, if sin COULD still be infinite, then let’s represent that quality with i and “all the more” as x (an integer exceeding 0)

amount of sin = i
amount of grace = i + x

i = infinity, infinity plus any quantity is just infinity…so the statement in Scripture that grace “abounds all the more” is rendered meaningless, as you cannot have more than infinity. therefore the grace would have to equal, not overwhelm, sin…which is not what this scripture states: it states that grace abounds MORE than sin.

however i am conscious of the fact that grace could thus also be seen as finite by this line, but if we have the quantity of finite sin set to f and “all the more” equal to x, an integer exceeding 0:

sin = f
grace = f + x.
if grace = f + x, then grace will always superabound compared to sin.

hence, sin is not infinite, and even if grace is not infinite by this token, we know it ALWAYS grows to exceed sin, and therefore has infinite capacity to grow larger and larger.

:laughing:

I hadn’t thought of that, but I think you make a valid point. Although logic/reason isn’t always a valid approach for some people I talk to :unamused:

For Sin, for any sin, to be infinite it would have to be equal to God, who is infinite… :confused:

I think we can all see why the idea of “infinite sin” falls flat on its face…If we have functioning cognitive faculties, of course.