i thought i did, too. til he nearly made me homeless and walked away with 2 grand. not to mention 2 years of anxiety linked to it. no they are soulless and evil, and no someone does NOT have to do it, at least not that way. if the government provided a proper service for valuation and assistance in buying/selling/renting/letting that was not linked to commission, it’d be a help. we DON’T need these awful parasites.
Agreed James - and sorry to hear about your terrible experience old chum. Now I understand. Estate agents don’t have to operate like this; you’ve experienced their oppression.
Yes I guess this ‘industry’ has been especially bad during the good years of the current economic cycle - and their arrogance has played a big role in causing the current international recession I understand.
Back to Health and Wealth - I think this ‘gospel’ is a hostage to fortune. Its probably very popular during years of economic boom but loses appeal when times get hard
I know there is a sect of Japanese Buddhism - Sokka Gakkai - that is sort of Health and Wealth Buddhism (you chant for improved salaries, new car etc with complete faith – and material success and wellbeing are larks of your faith). Orlando Bloom and Tina Turner are both members. They had a very successful worldwide mission during the years when Japan was very successful economically. They were all over London like a rash during the Yuppie years too. But they’ve certainly peaked and slumped now - in the UK you hardly hear about them anymore .
Sorry about your experience again old chum.
All very good wishes
Dick
Hi Sherman, hi Andy
I don’t want to rain on your parade (again). And I admire your graciousness in trying to see the good in others, and not to judge – as is of course our Christian duty.
But frankly I am astounded – and more than a little worried – by your laissez faire stance towards ‘pastor’ Benny Hinn (who ordained him, I wonder?) and his so-called ‘healing ministry’. And I am even more worried that you appear not to see, or have chosen not to acknowledge, quite how pernicious, quite how harmful – physically, mentally and spiritually – not to mention, dishonest, unbiblical and quite possibly illegal, his activities are.
Were it simply a question of finding his stage show (or should that be staged show?) not to one’s taste then I might agree with you. If ridiculously over-the-top carnival barker flim-flam is anyone’s bag, then that’s okay with me.
Personally I find the spectacle of Hinn flailing his ‘magic jacket’ hysterically at advancing regiments of tumbling acolytes, like Gandalf smiting a horde of marauding orcs in Lord of the Rings, utterly nauseating. (If you haven’t seen this extraordinary spectacle, check out the You Tube video *Benny Hinn Dark Lord of the Sith *– it’s the funniest thing I’ve seen since George W Bush got elected.)
‘Pastor’ Benny might call it being anointed in the spirit. I call it mass hysteria. But that’s just my innate scepticism and British stiff upper lip, I guess. (Some of us here still haven’t got over the horrific spectacle of James Corden blubbing during his acceptance speech at the Tonys this week, for goodness sake …)
Seriously – and there are some very grave issues at stake here – you might think there’s nothing wrong with Benny boy’s Wizard of Oz razzmatazz, because he’s not really hurting anybody, some people do get healed, and some people learn about Christ through his rallies, right?
Wrong. Dead wrong. And that’s the literal truth. There are people, desperately ill people, who have pitched up at one of Hinn’s shows, been told they’ve been healed, and gone home and abandoned the proper medical treatment they were having as a result. You can guess the outcome. The NBC Dateline expose of Hinn (which you can watch in its entirety on You Tube) cited the tragic example of a woman dying of lung cancer who Hinn claimed had been miraculously cured, who died just two months later. And there are plenty more stories like that floating around on the internet.
Then what about all those people who turn up and don’t get healed (like Sass)? How do they feel I wonder? Because Benny says that if you have enough faith, you will be healed! What sort of message does that send to the poor sods whose aches and pains are no better once the circus has rolled out of town? It’s quite obvious how damaging such an outcome could be for their ‘real’ faith, not to mention their self-esteem and general psychological well-being.
NBC Dateline filmed Hinn supposedly healing 56 people at one of his stage shows. When they confronted him afterwards and asked him to provide documentary proof of a bone fide medical cure, he prevaricated for weeks, and eventually came up with some half-assed evidence of five supposed cures from some other show. His staff were not able to find one single person from those lucky 56 – not one – who could prove they’d been healed.
NBC Dateline also exposed Benny’s dirty little secret of how everyone who goes up on stage seemingly ends up being restored to rude health, no matter what it was they’d been suffering from before. It’s so simple, and so brazen, it’s breathtaking. What happens is that Benny’s minions screen everybody who wants to get in line to go on stage. They ask them a few quick questions, basically getting them to admit that they’re already healed of whatever it was that was ailing them when they first arrived! Anyone with an obvious physical ailment or disability doesn’t make it through the screening process. And as for the paraplegics and wheelchair users, well they haven’t got a cat in hell’s chance of making it onto the stage with the great man.
There’s another benefit to all this for Benny, of course. Since all the folk who do make it onto the stage are convinced they’ve been touched by the spirit, they’re already in a state of near hysteria anyway. Meaning Benny only has to tap them on the head, or anoint them with his magic jacket, and pow! – down they go like they’ve been shot.
Naturally, there is the odd person who doesn’t get zapped by the spirit with sufficient drama for Benny. So what does he do? He simply pushes them over! Again, it’s all there on You Tube, plain as day. Way to go Benny!
Now maybe the spirit really does come upon some people at a Benny Hinn show. And if it does, then that’s great. But surely the spirit can come on anybody anytime He pleases. Surely He doesn’t need to be channelled through ‘pastor’ Benny’s magic jacket, or scrunched up and hurled into the crowds by Benny like some ectoplasmic baseball.
And then there’s Hinn’s appalling ‘prosperity gospel’. Which basically boils down to the ‘pastor’ telling you that if you send him a wad of dough, you’ll get it all back with interest because God will be so pleased he’ll bless you beyond the dreams of avarice. And the bigger your ‘seed donation’, the bigger your blessings will be!
And believe me, Benny needs some mighty big seed donations. After all, somebody’s got to pay the finance on his 36 million dollar Gulfstream jet, and stump up for the running expenses for his eight million dollar, eight bathroom, ten car garage mansion in that nice safe gated community he lives in.
Benny is utterly brazen about begging you to send him your money. A couple of years ago his empire took a bit of a financial nosedive after his wife filed for divorce, and for some inexplicable reason considerable numbers of the faithful stopped sending in their cash. What did Benny do? Well for a start he begged for money to pay his legal fees of 600,000 dollars (yep, you heard that right, 600,000 large for Benny to wrangle with the ex Mrs Hinn in the divorce court). Then he somehow managed to get the ex Mrs Hinn to retie the knot (Burton and Taylor had nothing on Benny and his old lady). And then he gets down on his knees and begs everybody to step up their giving to ‘restore’ the ministry to its previous cash-rich position.
Of course, you don’t have to do it just for Benny and his ministry. No, make the good ‘pastor’ rich and you’ll get rich too. Here it is, in Benny’s own words:
“As I ask you to prayerfully consider planting your most generous seed this month, I am believing with you for three very specific miracles:
All losses will stop in your life.
You will have total restoration and recovery in your finances, your life, and your family. God will restore the years the locust has eaten (Joel 2:25).
Total abundance will come your way.”
That’s it folks! Total abundance will come your way! Hallelujah!
Quite how much of your hard earned green will go into Benny’s mission projects and quite how much into his wallet it’s hard to be sure. Especially since Benny has persistently refused to demonstrate any real financial accountability. Even though he’s been the subject of a senate enquiry into his finances (the result of which was inconclusive), he still refuses to become a member of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. Even though he still hasn’t built his super duper new healing centre in Texas, he’s persistently refused to say what happened to the 25 million bucks he raised to pay for it.
But Benny’s not so bad, you say. He loves God and he loves people. Well maybe he does – as long as they’re not gay, of course. Some years ago Benny the prophet predicted that God was “going to destroy all the homosexuals in America with fire”. Inexplicably this didn’t happen. But it did rather tip Hinn’s hand on the issue. (If I was being uncharitable I might bring up a couple of Benny’s other embarrassingly dud prophecies, like Castro going to meet his maker, or armies of people being raised from the dead simply because a relative laid them out in front of the TV set when Benny was preaching. But I don’t want to kick the man when he’s down.)
At least Benny loves the good Mrs Hinn. You can tell that’s true by the chivalrous pronouncements he and his flunkeys made when she divorced him:
“Although Pastor Hinn has faithfully endeavored to bring healing to their relationship, those efforts failed and were met with the petition for divorce that was filed without notice.”
You get the idea.
And he’s maintained his chivalrous stance by explaining that the reason poor Mrs Hinn divorced him in the first place was because of her addiction to prescription medicines. Benny of course was utterly blameless in the matter, his only failing being that he’d spent too much time serving God and the ministry when he should have been looking after the wife and kids.
There are a lot of rumours flying around on the internet as to why Benny’s wife tried to ditch him after “30 faithful years of marriage”. Some of them are highly scurrilous. I won’t repeat them here, but the trusty Google will reveal all if you wish to do your own detective work.
Have I met Benny Hinn? No, and I very much hope I never do. Do I know anybody who knows him personally? No. But then I’ve never met Charles Manson, or any of his circle, either. But I’ve formed an opinion about Manson, based on the testimony of others, and the information about his life and behaviour that is in the public domain. Okay, so Manson is a convicted killer (and quite possibly insane). Hinn has thus far managed to avoid being convicted of any crime, although as I say he has been the subject of a senate enquiry into his operations.
Plus of course, Hinn is potentially just one in a depressingly long and highly dishonourable line of evangelical Christian televangelists who have plummeted from whatever grace they may have once inhabited. Wikipedia documents the sorry stories of 45 of them!
Why does ‘pastor’ Benny Hinn make me so angry? Why am I bothering to post all this stuff about him here on this board? Shouldn’t I just shrug my shoulders and leave it up to God to sort out the whole unholy mess? No, frankly I don’t think I should. In the words of the famous quote attributed to Edmund Burke, all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. And the more good Christian folk, or any folk for that matter, let Hinn keep getting away with fleecing the faithful, the worse it will be for all of us in the long run.
Burke did also say that superstition is the religion of feeble minds. If you ask me, for Hinn, it’s only a matter of time before his chickens come home to roost …
All the best
Johnny
Thanks Prof for the sympathy!
Johnny, i couldn’t agree more. coming from Canada, where (as i’ve said before) people seem content to eat the theological crumbs from the floor under the table of American evangelicalism, i have seen how these cults of personalities work, if not from the inside, from very close next to it.
now, i am being a little harsh…most of the obvious televangelist frauds were viewed with much suspicion at the very least, by most THINKING people i knew. for example, i remember my mother saying Peter Popoff lied through his teeth, a statement i found very apt, as he has GREAT BIG HOOJ shiny teeth. also, i had this confirmed when i saw a bit of one of his shows where he was pleading most passionately for donations, so that they could send the donors a blessed handkerchief which they could stash under their pillow. i know he was going for that hem of the garment thing Jesus managed, and even when the apostles gave out bits of cloth, but seriously…could he get more pagan? you don’t put faith in cloth, you put it in God!
i remember attending rallies and meetings and things, where the Toronto Blessing was at play. to be totally honest, some people too the opportunity presented by these meetings to get right with God. such a thing is wonderful, i admit. this could’ve happened anywhere, but i guess the emotional climate was right for them. personally, i had hot and cold moments. i had a very big thing happen once at a meeting, which is a bit off topic for now, so i’ll leave it, but God could’ve done it anywhere. certainly, the generic prayer i had done over me by a friend (for which i am grateful, but he clearly didn’t know what to do with what i’d given him) wasn’t the issue, but something bad between God and me broke down and i had Him with me again, in a sense i thought i had lost.
so that’s the good side of these things.
do i remember much of what these preachers said? to their credit, they didn’t claim to heal that i recall…they just knocked us down and said impressive things, but i don’t remember what Judah Smith said really, and i don’t remember what Bazil Howard Browne said (apart from the time when he urged wives to go shopping at victoria’s secret to show love to their husbands lol 
which i have to give him credit for, there’s nothing wrong with that) and another guy whose name i’ve forgotten who said “God’s not mad at you” (something i have often had to remind myself of).
but these guys weren’t huge greedy televangelists.
we saw THOSE guys on tv, with a mixture of pity and revulsion. we saw tammy faye baker with her disgusting makeup, we wondered at the fruits these people produced. it was NOT good fruit.
i have to say, though i have fond memories of some revival meeting things i went to, and certainly of the well-meaning people hosting them, the fruit (for me) was not so good either.
i saw how school mates of mine, nasty people generally, would raise their hands and fall down and shake about, and then still be nasty people the next day. i’d try to follow their example, assuming they were really meeting God, and then fail to feel ANYTHING.
i wondered what was wrong with me. it was very unhealthy. it filled me with self revulsion and made me feel worse about myself.
i have come to realise, however, that there was nothing wrong with me. my “friends” were charlatans. they were conning themselves and others around them. they felt nothing either, they were not connecting with God in ways i, in my innate unworthiness, could not even comprehend.
and then i saw what the whole thing was…a circus geared towards emotional manipulation. play this chord, and strum in this manner, and the Holy Spirit will fall! here’s a great summary in the form of a gentle parody: youtube.com/watch?v=3RJBd8zE48A
the fact the people involved probably didn’t know they were doing it doesn’t make it any less of a circus.
i do fear i’m straying off topic…so back to the glorified salesmen hinn and i suppose this weise character, who frankly disgusts me because he admits to playing a part in the “industry” of real estate, which oppresses people and sells them lies. an example of capitalism gone drunk with power (with reference to the sin of sodom thanks to RuthJ) which is part of what led us to this huge recession we are now suffering. and to claim that he used Biblical principles in this is frankly impossible.
i feel this big, shiny, expensive image the church has been extorting from people to create is repulsive and leprous in reality. it is a white-washed tomb in a very literal sense.
i suppose if i were better informed on the subject, it’d be easy to go for the Catholic church here…they have more wealth than they need and are in the iron grip of a cult of personality themselves, but i’m sure the issue is more complex for them…they have also done ALOT of good, particularly their last pope, who seemed almost universalist!
but i think it’s interesting how in western, non Anglican/Catholic Christianity, we seem to be replacing a heirarchy of ministers or a single leader with multiple little ones. they don’t have the accountability that the Anglican church has, for example, so they spring up, lead many astray, get rich, fall (or get away with it), and that’s capitalism done in the style of Christianity. why is it that we humans are such sheep that we always need to have some charismatic leader ahead of us, to excuse us for our atrocities and stupidity? why can’t we make our own minds up?
on the homosexuality thread, the issue of church and state came up…ok so the UK isn’t separated…but is the US TRULY separated? the hardline fundamentalists and charlatons play a huge role in politics, that is obvious to everyone outside the US. the separation between church and state doesn’t exist when the state is very much influenced or overpowered by the “church”.
what’s with the cults of personality? we must follow Jesus, not Paul or Apollo or James or John or Hinn or Graham etc etc.
why give so much power and authority just because someone stands behind a lectern and tells you what to think? or shouts into a microphone? or has letters after their name? or writes a blog? or gets a book published? who cares! people are people…we must trust where someone or something is trustworthy, but we must always be as wise as a serpent.
no kidding the world laughs at us, when we listen so readily to those who would steal from us and lie to us.
one of the most misquoted and abused Scriptures is “touch not mine annointed.”
i think we’d know God’s annointed from glorified charlatons and magicians if we had an ounce of discernment, and give our trust cautiously.
watch anything Darren Brown has done on the subject of religious manipulation, or self help techniques (such as The Heist, very telling!). he is an atheist, but i think he adds alot to the conversation. we must not mistake trickery and fraud as signs of God’s favour or presence.
i hope i haven’t rambled too much. i am still eating my late breakfast
Hi Johnny,
I see no need for you to be worried for me. I see all the same things that you see. And I don’t disagree with anything that you wrote.
I suppose that the distinction I make is that while I don’t care for Benny Hinn, I do have a lot of love and respect for the sincerity and decency of my pentecostal/charismatic brothers and sisters, many of whom greatly appreciate the sort of worship that Sherman mentioned. I was not raised in that tradition, so it is all a bit odd to me. But I respect that-- and most certainly Sherman-- even if I do not respect Benny Hinn, or a dozen others one could mention. That’s what I was trying to convey. No more and no less.
Anyway, all the best to you as well,
Andy
Hello Andy - some of this sound and fury has to do wiht misapprehesions across the big pond I reckon…
It’s such a long time since I was an evangelical that I’m not up on the telly evangelists myself (and don’t watch then on You Tube). But I know three of my London brothers and sister are more recently meshed into this subculture and feel about alienated by it.
I reckon it is perhaps a shame that this here discussion got personalised around Bill Hinney – and around our Sherman by extension - because some of the issues seem well worth engaging in dialogue about in a relaxed way
It’s sometime since I spoke to Pentecostal Christians who were my peers (as opposed to young Pentecostals who have been students of mine recently) - but ten years ago when I did (in a Post-evangelical group) the ones I spoke to were very intelligent people who were able to be self critical of aspects of the UK movement as it was then. And everyone on this thread is self critical and open minded - so perhaps it’s just the heat of the discussion at the moment that has become unnerving.
Perhaps this discussion needs a break - but perhaps we could look at relevant issues at a future date?
My hot issues are -
The TV evangelist phenomena and stadium evangelists come from America and can often seem a bit alien from this side of the pond for various reasons. What’s going on? Why does it seem alien to lots of people in the UK but not seem so alien in parts of the USA? - can we understand each other about different perceptions? Can two perspectives help with issues of discernment?
Is Hinney ‘Health and Wealth Gospel’? - as far as I understand it many Pentecostals are deeply critical of Health and Wealth teachings. And it would be good to know more about this.
I know there is concern expressed in the UK crusades - especially by disabled Christians - whenever Maurice Cerullo does a tour of the UK, for example. And mainstream evangelicals have often been the most critical. It might also be good to examine the criticisms and the defence at some point – again with the heat taken out.
Blessings
Dick
Hi Dick,
No worries. I do understand and respect Johnny’s views. I even agree with the lion’s share.
I guess what I see, and what I think Sherman was at least partially getting at (tho I wouldn’t want to try and speak for him) is that there is more in play at a two- or three-day Benny Hinn (or name your mega-minister of choice) crusade than might meet some eyes from the outside looking in. One aspect, that I think Johnny is quite rightly critical of, are the “faith healing” services that people see on TV. For me, and certainly for Johnny, it has all the hallmarks of the worst sort of hucksterism, to be brutally honest (lol… tho perhaps not as brutally as Johnny would put it!). But there are also music and worship services that can last for 90 minutes or two hours or even more. For many charismatic believers here, worshiping with many thousands of other believers in such a setting is a far bigger deal than whose crusade it happens to be. For them, the sincere focus is on the Lord, and the real experience of His presence far transcends any one man or woman. So, I feel it’s right for me to honor that, especially when it comes to a brother like Sherman, whose genuine kindness and generosity of spirit is evident for all to see. I’ve read enough of Johnny’s posts to be equally certain of the very same thing about him.
I’m sure it appears I’m trying to sit too squarely on a fence here, but that’s not what I’m intending. It isn’t always easy to speak clearly when one’s feelings about something are complicated and nuanced, if you know what I mean! 
Anyway, TV evangelism is far from uncontroversial here, either, even within the pentecostal/charismatic branches of the church. There are a good many people, myself included, who dearly wish it were not the most visible face of American Christianity overseas.
I agree with you, too, that there are (as usual!!!) all sorts of underlying issues well worth some future discussion.
Lots of love back to you and to all,
Andy
Hi Andy, hi Dick
Dick - thank you for pouring your considered professorial oil onto the waters I so bull-headedly churned up. 
Andy - thank you firstly for your graciousness and your kind words. You are a good man, sir. And thank you for clarifying your position about our friends the televangelists. I know I go overboard sometimes with the sarcasm, but this is an issue I feel *very *strongly about. You probably noticed.
Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about injustice - the injustice that is rife in the world, the way the rich exploit the poor, the way rich *countries *exploit poor countries. I know that God hates that injustice, and I am convicted that it is my duty to fight against injustice however I can. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not setting myself up as some sort of spiritual superhero. I’m no Bono! And I daresay I’m no different from thousands and thousands of other Christians (and indeed non-Christians) in feeling the way I do. No, I’m just trying to contextualise my outrage, if you like. And I know I should be more forgiving, and slower to judge and condemn - especially when I’m such a failure as a Christian myself. (And that’s not self-pity or false modesty. It’s just a fact.)
And I do really worry that televangelists like Hinn are exploiting both the generosity and the - and I’m sorry to say this, but I think it’s true - gullibility of Christians, particularly in America, but also in Africa and the third world generally. Often it is the poorest believers who buy into Hinn’s patter, partly out of a genuine belief that they’re doing what God wants them to do, but also, sadly, because they are promised that if they do they will themselves prosper.
Anyway, I think I should clarify that in no way do I wish to ‘attack’ or criticise Pentecostal / charismatic worship services - or by extension Sherman. Please accept my apologies, Sherman, if that’s how I came across. I don’t have any direct experience of such worship, but I think it’s wonderful for people to express themselves freely and joyfully in praise of God. As an uptight Brit I confess I’m not a hands in the air dancing sort of guy. Although we do have some services like that here. Apparently.
One reason why televangelists and faith healers make me angry is because I think they often ‘hijack’ that genuine desire to worship and use it for their own selfish ends - ie to make themselves look good, and to raise money. Now, if Benny Hinn were to change his modus operandi and lead healing services WITHOUT asking for any money from anybody, then maybe I’d be prepared to take him a bit more seriously. Maybe. Or maybe not.
But great to talk to you all, guys.
Peace and love
Johnny
Nick, of Disposable Soul fame, posted this on his blog today. It’s relevant and hilarious (and not too critical towards dear Benny Hinn, I hope). It had me in stitches
Johnny I agree. Desperate people go to these meetings for miracles. People who are going to lose their homes, their kids. People with cancer given weeks to live. These guys tell them to “sow a seed”. If this isn’t “making merchandise of you”, what pray tell is? It’s diabolical.
I was once a member of a “Word of Faith” church, I know ALL ABOUT FAITH HEALERS. I saw Hinn, Shambach, Shuttlesworth, Joyce Meyer (she’s doesn’t deserve to be lumped in with them though in my opinion), Even saw Kenneth Hagin in the flesh. He IS considered the Grandaddy of the faith movement.
Anyway, in the early 90’s a man came into our church. He had AIDS. Young, married with two little kids. He was already SO sick his eyes were completely yellow. He was so desperate to get healed and stay alive to raise his toddlers. Our pastor prayed for him and TOLD HIM HE WAS HEALED…HE JUST HAD TO KEEP IT. I FELT SICK. That poor man left there with a worse burden than he came with. Can you imagine dying thinking you were in unbelief and how that must make you feel about facing God? ESPECIALLY THE ECT GOD? As in as your body wastes away it makes you question your very salvation? Wow. I have NO KIND WORDS for that whole scene. Peace out.
Sass
i think your rage is appropriate, sass. it’s the rage of Christ as He chased out the vile moneylenders in the temple.
we MUST rage at this. this is, as i feel RuthJ proved on the Sin of Sodom thread, well…the Sin of Sodom.
let’s tear out the roots of this vile heresy that causes so much suffering and preys on the desparate. we can NOT tolerate it any more. we should never have tolerated it!
Wow, sass. What an awful story. It is one thing to pray and believe in the best for the sick and needy and to stand with them in love and hope. It is quite another to make them the object of guilt and self doubt or use their ordeals for . When you use the word “diabolical,” I don’t think you are overstating it in any way.
Andy
Very well and clearly stated, Johnny. When I was a lot younger, I was pretty confident that we humans could and would do a lot better job of taking care of one another in future. Sadly, it hasn’t exactly panned out that way.
All the best,
Andy
What Sass said!!! Sass, you remind me of my own situation and I can’t imagine being told this is my fault for NOT having enough faith, or love, or hope, or whatever… I truly think that would put me over the edge. I like James’ and Andy’s response… and I feel like Johnny in that I have a very, very difficult time with injustice!!! That really, really bothers me. It’s weird sort of, I can or think I can handle my own situation, but IF someone else is being dealt an unfair hand, that just really gets to me.
Through out the last three years of being sick I never considered a “faith healer.” I did have a Catholic priest lay his hands on me and pray, but I wasn’t looking for anything other than comfort and a prayer. And Sass, diabolical IS the right word. Sometimes (dare I say most of the time), those who are sick, in pain, suffering emotionally, etc., ALL they really need is a hug. A hug can say and do so much. I believe that’s the sort of laying on of hands that really works. People just want to be loved, it’s as simple as that. Definitely not told that they don’t have enough faith. sigh. I’m through ranting.
Love to each of you,
Bret
Hi Johnny,
No worries, I didn’t take your denunciation of Hinn personally or as an attack against all Charismatics/Pentecostals. I too stand against “Charimainia”, all the crazyness that seems to go along with those seeking to learn and grow in the manifestations of the Spirit. And yes, there is plenty of hucksterism going on. But there are also genunine manifestations of the Spirit and those who are genuinely gifted in various manifestations of the Spirit. Personally, I’ve seen many people healed along side many people not being healed. I’ve seen miracles, and many times when a miracle did not come about. I’ve prayed and seen people healed, but I’ve also prayed and seen people die anyhow, much more so in fact. Does this stop me from praying for the sick, seeking miracles? No. When miracles do happen they are wonderful, though sadly they do not happen nearly as often as I desire. Am I disappointed when they don’t happen, broken when a loved one dies though I’ve prayed and prayed? Yes, but it doesn’t stop me from praying for the sick and rejoicing when I do see people healed.
And yes, the principle of sowing and reaping is often abused. I do believe what one sows, one shall reap. And I believe it is scriptural and healthy to encourage people to live as givers, not just of money, but of themselves. Is godliness a means of economic gain? Well, yes, as a generality. When people are saved they usually make many life-style changes that result in a lift for them and their families socially, physically, psychologically, and economically. Should we seek godliness as a means of gain though? No. At the core of godliness is a desire to please God which is manifested in good works (sowing) which results in reaping. But if our motives are selfish, it kinda defeats the purpose of giving. Our problem is that we are all so selfish at our core it is nigh impossibl to do anything that is not polluted by our selfishness. That’s why I’m so thankful for the grace of God. In realizing my own selfishness, I am hesitant, reluctant, to judge others, especially to try and judge the motives of their hearts, especially considering how limited my knowledge of them is.
In short, I find it much more effective to light a candle, than to curse the darkness. And I trust God to bring to light things that are hidden. If a ministry or denomination or minister is getting too big for their britches, I trust that it will show in the end. But let us remember that these are our brothers. Love covers a multitude of sins and grieves for those caught in sin, and seeks their restoration. Love is not easily angered, but is longsuffering and hopes the best.
Frankly, I don’t know is Hinn is using what God has given him faithfully or not. And I don’t necessarily trust NBC or any other news organization to give a balanced report on him or any other minister; if anything I expect them to be strongly biased against Christians. But I do trust God to judge justly and compassionately, and reign in brothers who are getting off track. And frankly, I don’t feel the need or desire to investigate Hinn or any other ministry to establish a personal judgment concerning their faithfulness to God. I’ve seen God use me to work miracles and heal people though I’m such a big mess, so I don’t expect others to be any better.
Are there excesses in the “Word of Faith”, I think so. On the other hand, if we err, let us err on the side of faith and grace. I know I’ve made mistakes in learning to walk in faith, in learning to discern the voice of the Lord, especially to discern it from my own desires. But the “Word of Faith” movement came about as a means of countering the traditional “Word or Doubt and Fear” traditional doctrine of the church. I appreciate the faith of the Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednigo, when they to Nebucanezzar (pardon the spelling) that they believed:
- God could save them.
- God would save them.
And 3) but if God did not save them they would still not bow!
And thanks everyone for the gracious comments concerning me personally. My “graciousness” is actually very selfish, in that I recognize that I need so much grace and I believe in sowing in reaping. I understand the depths of what Isaiah said - “Oh God what can I do? I’m a mess and everyone I know is a mess!”
i have just one more question about bill wiese…in his book did he say things like how after the demons slashed him his wounds just instantly heals 
that seems to bit a short of a cliche among demons who torture people in hell stories
One of the things that so amazes me about many of such NDEs where a person experiences “Hell”, is how they all seem to lead to salvation. Some people die, experience “Hell”, are saved from “Hell” and even experience Heaven, and then come back to life changed people. Others die, experience “Hell”, only to come back to life and soon get saved and become changed people. And then others who are saved have visions of “Hell” only to be motivated to share the love and forgiveness of God, resulting in salvations.
Personal, I think that such NDEs and visions, assuming they are legit, are people experiencing not “Hell”, but the spiritual reality of what Paul calls “this Present Evil Age” (Gal.1.4). In this “Present Evil Age” people are tormented by evil from within and without, slaves of sin and death with no hope of escape. At least, that is what Paul says that Jesus saves us from.
That’s beautifully said, Sherman.
Sometimes, though, it’s everything we can do not to grab our sword and take a chunk out of the bad guy’s ear like Peter did. But you’re right, of course.
So glad to know you,
Andy
Andy and Sherman – love ya both
The only thing I would say is I think there is a difference between judging as condemnation and judging as discernment. To judge/condemn someone is to presume to know their heart– none of us have the right to do this. To be discerning is to look at evidence and separate what is good from what is not so good – so it’s not a judgment on the person as such. I think we all have to make ‘judgements’ of discernment as opposed to judgements of condemnation; or else we cannot do anything to prevent abuses of power within the Church.
Part of discernment has to be about sifting through media evidence –for all I know NBC may be biased but there are ways of checking for bias (one way of which is looking for accuracy of reporting and comparing one report with other reports – freedom of the press enables us to do this).
Likewise anecdotal evidence needs to be sifted. I don’t see that Sass’s and Sherman’s experience cancel each other out – but I’d like to know people’s thoughts on what was going wrong in the case with the man with Aids, and what does this tell us about ‘faith healing’ being abused.
Blessings
Dick
Hey Brett,
I was invited by a couple once to a “healing service” at a little pentecostal church in California. It was a rather awkward invitation from people I didn’t really know very well, but they were so kind and gracious, it seemed easier to just go and be done with it, even though I didn’t really want to go. Partly, it was what I expected it to be. People were shouting and falling down on the floor, speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick, etc. Being a Presbyterian guy where the most energy expended is usually when we stand to sing the Doxology, I was kind of like a deer in the headlights, as you might imagine. It was like a 2-1/2 hour trip to Planet Zoldar! 
But I have to tell you, that was a pretty amazing service. I don’t know if anyone was actually healed, but the true love and concern in that room was palpable. The people who came for healing (I remember one lady had cancer) could have no doubt how much they were loved and how much people cared about their circumstances and their difficulties. You want hugs? Man, these people would have held onto you for an hour, or more, if you wanted! And I never heard a single word of judgment or condition put upon anything. I remember the theme of the pastor’s brief sermon was from Galatians 6, “Bear Ye One Another’s Burdens.” And man, that just what they did! Tears… of every sort, I’d imagine… flowed like rain that Friday night, and I’m nearly moved to tears when I think about it so many years later.
Sometimes, people will say to me, “I’m praying for you, Andy!” And it’s nice and all, but you don’t really think much of it besides it being a kind thing to say. But let me tell you something, when THOSE dear people said they were praying for you, by God, they were praying… and praying with everything they had.
I’m still white-bread, stodgy old Presbyterian guy for the most part, but that service was a real eye-opener.
Love in Christ,
Andy