The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Cals, Arms and Univs Need a Robot to Read Bible?

Many Cals and Arms find UR unconvincing b/c “it isn’t Biblical”. As I see, there are two possibilities for this: either Cals and Arm doctrinal committments are impervious to persuasion of universalist verses (or overarching Biblical interp.) or the Word is equivocal soteriologically (Or poss #3 - the Bible is Cal or Arm soteriologically, but for this ?, lets just assume if Bible not universalist, than Cal or Arm).

Evidence for the 1st: the are as many or more pro-universalist verses, there are relatively convincing arguments against many of the anti-universalist verses and mercy/forgiveness is the overarching theme of the bible

Evidence for the 2nd: the anti-universalist verses appear explicit, they are numerous enough to ? the reliability of the pro-universalist verses and it is arguable that the overarching theme of the Bible is mercy/forgiveness (could be justice, God’s holiness)

Can this matter be objectively (or relatively objectively) settled? Obviously, human readers, on any soteriological side, have a stake in the game. Do we need to construct a fact-finding robot to read the Bible? :slight_smile:

Hey Prince,

I think the Aquinas Catholics are more to the truth. It’s the paradox of both/and. Head and heart. Faith and obedience. Justice and mercy. Heaven and hell. Love and holy. Glory and humility. Died for all and saves only the elect. God is sovereign yet we are responsible. We need both and this is what the Catholic faith offers.

:laughing: I think the “fact-finding robot” approach is part of the problem. We’ve been trained up in a rationalist society and we read the Bible from that foundation. Unfortunately for us, the Bible wasn’t written from that foundation. Oriental literature I’m told tends toward the hyperbolic, metaphorical, symbolic, and typological. In other words, I fear the Orientals tend to think much more deeply that we. I guess computer applications are getting better at this sort of thing, but let’s face it – computers are better at facilitating the weaving numerical wonders and parsing words created by others than of their own original thought - or of deeply understanding original thought.

We speak of adding up verses, but as you’ve mentioned, it isn’t about a war of the verses. What is the overarching theme? What does scripture tell us when taken as a whole? How do we read the character of God? The competence and the intention of God? Does He glory in torturing His enemies? Or does He defeat His enemies by making them His friends? Does He give up on wooing those He loves, or is He more like Hosea? Or more to the point, is Hosea a type of Christ? And speaking of Christ, is He truly the accurate and full and actual image of the Father, or is Yahweh a petty and angry tribal god who mistakenly believes himself to be the Great God (as some say) – a god we’ve outgrown, who is supplanted by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Is there a dichotomy between the Father and the Son such that the Son needs to step in and appease the Father’s rage so as to save us from His angry and malevolent intent? Or are they working together, bound by love and identical purpose, expressed perhaps in the beauty and the power of the Holy Spirit?

Aside from the “hell” scriptures which are of highly controversial interpretation and evaluation, do we EVER see God as having a desire to torture His enemies, even in the OT narratives? We do see Him meting out justice to them, but then, in the verses many of us forget, we see their restoration either accomplished or foreshadowed. As He restored (and continues to restore) Israel, so He also restores the others to whom Israel was commissioned to be a blessing. What is the character of God? What is the ability of God? Do we expect Him to present Himself as Jonathan Edwards presented Him, or as a loving Father of rebellious children, a pursuing Bridegroom of a wanton bride, a wooing Holy Spirit who seeks to reconcile us to both Father and Son? We never ever see a picture in scripture of God needing to be reconciled to His creation. It is always the opposite. We never see God throwing anyone away or failing at any task He undertakes. If then He woos, He will win, and He will woo – not because He cannot force but because He will not. And He will win, because He cannot fail. That to me is the overarching theme of scripture and the character and competence of God. We can trust Him no matter how many verses we can pile on one side or on the other. There HE is, at the center, drawing us to His savior with irresistible beauty and love.

Prince,

God doesn’t torture His enemies. Rather, He loves them and desires to see them repent but they refuse to in hell. Rest assured that the punishment will fit the crime. Once one enters (timeless) eternity they become just as unchanging as God. Their natures are fixed. They stay evil forever.

Prince,

God and reality are paradoxical. We need both head and heart, faith and works, justice and mercy, love and hate of good and evil. Heaven and hell. We need both sides of the paradox. The reason why is because we need balance and stability. We will be sorrowful for those in hell yet rejoicing in love in heaven. Steady joy will be tinged with steady sorrow. The seasoned soul in Christ has a steady joy and a steady sorrow. They protect each other. Joy is protected from being flippant by steady sorrow. Sorrow is protected from being fatal by steady joy.

Cindy:

I think what I am getting after is how we as universalists (though I am not 100%, I am way closer to that than Calv or Arm) prove to Cals and Arms that we have checked our bias at the door when reading the Bible. I’m sure you’ve gotten into a conversation on universalism with a more traditionally-minded Christian, and eventually something came up like, “Well, of course you think that universalism is T, who wouldn’t want everybody to go to Heaven?” (Or maybe you are a good enough apologist that this sort of thing doesn’t happen to you. :smiley: ) It is quite difficult to advance the conversation beyond this point, as most Cals and Arms are convinced that, even if the universalist can show that the other views stand on exegetically shaky ground or at least their appeals to scripture or no better than those of the universalist or annihilationist, since their’s is the “tougher” view, it must therefore be correct. Universalism is often thought to be for “itching ears”, and therefore a false Gospel.

The only retort I have been able to half-successfully make on the probable bias of the universalist is that, in a sense, the infernalist view is also humanistic or selfish, b/c if indeed God doesn’t intend to punish with ECT, then Cals and Arms are impugning the rep. of God. So, I am trying to think what would settle the matter, what is the least biased way of reading the Bible? Who would be the most neutral judge of the overall message of the Bible? An agnostic? Can those of us with a stake in the game, who purport to be a universalist, or a Calvinist, really claim to be objective readers? Of course, in a sense, we can never be as you were quite right to point out, but the soteriological question will keep going round and round 'til a neutral methodology can be struck on. (I know of one, I can’t think of the their name presently, who enumerated all the verses for each particular soteriology and then justified their stance on the most prevalent - I think it turned out to be universalism)

Michael:

I think most universalists wouldn’t find the fact of the Reprobate having their earthly choices reified to a realm of permanent misery comforting, but that it is perhaps true, that is a different matter. I’m guessing you are not a universalist? What do you think that those of us who’ve staked out a soteriological claim need some check on our bias(es) when reading the Bible?

Hey Prince,

It’s not comforting. This is why we have the joys of heaven. It will balance out the sorrow and fear. We will be sorrowful yet always rejoicing as we exist in heaven. God wipes away the tears from our eyes by balancing out the sorrow with joy. These are the paradoxes of reality. I think people just try to get around the terrors of hell because they haven’t embraced the paradox. I’ve been attending a Catholic church for a year now and after giving it some thought I think I’m going to join.

I’m pretty sure it would have come out with many more universalist verses. I remember being shocked when I first started studying universal reconciliation several years back at how very many of them there were. We just look over them until (I guess) we’re ready to see them. But I don’t think there are any shortcuts to presenting a coherent argument for any of the points. You’re somewhat ahead of the game if you start out with one of the more prevalent arguments (that is, either for Arm or Calv) because many of the people you talk to will already be your allies. But if you want to argue face to face for universal reconciliation, you’ll have to know your stuff.

I decided right away that I was going to become as much of an expert as I was capable of, because I knew I’d have lots of questions and disagreements. We were doing house church at the time. Our group has drifted apart since (because of so many new babies and busy mommies/daddies – nothing to do with my “heretical” beliefs) :laughing: Besides it became something of an obsession for me. What an amazing and fascinating thought! God could really be THAT good?! Was it true? I had to be fully convinced if I was going to share it with anyone, and I had to be able to defend it.

Questions I get most often are, “Doesn’t it take the pressure off for evangelism? I mean why bother if they’re all going to be saved anyhow?” “Why live for Jesus now if you’re going to heaven anyway?” At these I just shake my head. Are these people even Christ followers? Seriously? I needed to find out what the gospel really was, because suddenly it actually WASN’T about getting to heaven when you die. It’s about being in love with Jesus and with other people. It’s about love and learning to be like Him and helping other people and loving one another as He has loved us. The atonement isn’t about Father sacrificing His Son to Himself to appease His wrath. It’s about Jesus putting the flesh to death along with the condemnation of the law that was against us. As the second Adam, He put the entire race to death in Himself so that we could die to the bonds of this world and our slavery to sin, and be raised to new life in Him, free to live in righteousness. Another thing that concerns people is the fear that if you believe in UR, you’re a heretic and going to hell. I remind them that this is not what sends people to hell according to prevalent theology. You go to hell for rejecting Jesus, not for having mistakes in your theology. Otherwise everyone would be going to hell. Then they ask about the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the Sheep and the Goats, the Wheat and the Tares, the Ten Bridesmaids and probably some others I’m not thinking of just now. So I did a study of the parables of Jesus and discovered what an incredible genius Jesus actually was (and is, of course). For that I highly recommend Kenneth E Bailey’s “Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes” and “Poet & Peasant” (with “Through Peasant Eyes”). Also “Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus” (Lois Tverberg). I did a study on the atonement because suddenly Penal Substitution didn’t work any more (for me) and I discovered to my surprise and delight that there are many atonement theories, and that most of them are much better supported in scripture than Penal Sub.

I’m afraid there aren’t any shortcuts. And you probably shouldn’t expect to persuade your friends. Unless they’re already on the edge, that’s not likely to happen – but you can plant some seeds. You need to know your subject well so that you can answer questions in a way that will particularly relate to the person asking them. It’s also important to have a good over-all understanding and familiarity with scripture as a whole.

I did a year-long study of Romans to see what Paul had to say about these and many other things. I read TEU (Gregory MacDonald aka Robin Parry) – a couple of times, Inescapable Love of God (Thomas Talbott) – maybe three times, and Hope Beyond Hell (Gerry Beaucheman) several times as well. Other good books to read are The One Purpose of God (Jan Bonda), All Shall Be Well (edited by Gregory MacDonald), a wide selection of George MacDonald’s books, and of course the Bible. “The Shack” is a good one too, and a lot of people like Rob Bell’s “Love Wins,” though I didn’t find it all that helpful for me. That’s not an exhaustive list, but unless you’ve already read most of them, it should keep you busy. I also read a bunch of books on why hell in the traditional sense is real, because I wanted to know the worst arguments I might come up against. I thought maybe they’d convince me to rescind my new beliefs, but none of them turned out to be very good. In other places I ran across a few questions I found difficult, but I asked them here and got very good answers to all of them.

People will have their preconceived notions as to what Christian universalists believe. Most of them think we’re all pluralists. Unitarians are pluralists, and some non-Unitarians are pluralists as well. But I know a significant number of evangelicals who are so close to pluralism it’s hard to figure out what the difference is. Most of them are missionaries, and as they’re all either Annis or ECTs, that’s understandable. They have to have an answer for themselves as to how all this vast group of people with so little opportunity to know our Jesus could be justifiably damned – especially when they’ve met so many good, decent people who’ve never come to know the Lord. Myself, I’m not a pluralist. I believe that everyone eventually comes to the Father through the Son by the influence of the Holy Spirit. There is no other way – but He eventually finds them all, no matter how far off track they’ve wandered. That’s what I tell people who ask me if I believe “all roads lead to heaven.” I use a line (more or less) penned by the author of The Shack – “Most roads lead nowhere, but the Good Shepherd will eventually find them no matter which road they’ve wandered down.” He has Jesus saying this in first person, but I don’t do that. :laughing:

Blessings, Cindy

I think that the only way to solve such disputes is by recognizing that the Bible does not speak with one voice on such issues.

As I have argued, Conservative Evangelicals are the ones who pick and choose.
Due to the self-contradictory nature of the Bible, they always have to choose which verses they take at face value which determines in turn which verses have to be explained away.

I am open to the possibility that Paul believed in universal reconciliation (Allversöhnung), as argued by Dr. Talbott.

However Jesus was most likely not an universalist.

"The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born. "

If Juda inherited salvation, it would make no sense at all saying it would have been better for him not to be born.

All the universalist ways to explain away this passage seem to me extremely implausible.

Yet I recognize I am a fallible being and am open to consider novel things.

?? Why couldn’t Jesus’ words simply have been a hyperbolic statement… just as you or I might use if we were saying the same sort of thing in a given situation etc?

It’s my understanding that this remark was a cliche’ of sorts. People said this back in the day as an expression of sympathy. But if you want to take it absolutely literally, the Jews considered a person’s life to begin at conception, so a baby conceived but not born (or still born, which amounted to the same thing) would still participate in any after life the Jews believed in at the time.

God both loves and hates His enemies. He is not willing that any should perish. He both punishes and purifies. He destroys the old self and creates a new one. It would have been better had the old Judas had not been born. So, God will destroy him and give Him a new name - child of God. In the end love wins.

Wow! Great insight, Cole. I’ve never heard this said about Judas, and never thought it myself – but it fits perfectly. Thanks!

It’s my pleasure Cindy.

There is something profound about that, like maybe Christ saying it would be better for him not to be born as he is…but thankfully there is a new birth for all of us.

Lotharson:

I tend to agree with you that the Bible at least seems confusing soteriologically; however, it seems that you find conditional immortality plausible. How did you arrive at that, and that universalism seems false, given the Bible’s confusion? Wouldn’t agnosticism be the better choice?

Cindy:

Since ur now a convinced universalist, then the matter of bias may not have the same significance for you as it does for me. I want to know I am reading the Bible unbiasedly. I suppose I can never convince a non-universalist that I am reading the Bible objectively, but I would love to think of a way to show that I am prepared to accept the truth of the Bible, even if that truth comes out against univ. Maybe this need is itself a bias :smiley:? Do you have any other ideas than verse enumeration? Maybe like giving the Bible to a Gk/Hb expert who was completely agnostic?
I like debates but usually people accuse one or both debaters of being manipulative and/or evasive. What do you think has been the best debate, or exchange, b/w a universalist and non-universalist, if not the Craig and Talbott exchange? (I’m okay if u think that the universalist won , but at least a debate where the “traditional” view was given due consideration :smiley: ).

Myshkin,

I’d point to my debate with ECT proponent TurretinFan (moderated by anni proponent Chris Date), but it quickly became obvious that TFan hadn’t really prepared for the debate as well as he might have, so (even aside from the question of self-promotion :wink: ) I don’t know how usefully fair (or fairly useful) pointing there would be: he ends up rather straw-manning himself.

Still I don’t know any outright debates available on the topic yet. I would expect YouTube to have some, but since I don’t know any yet I couldn’t testify to their quality.

(I do have a three way printed debate with an ECT and an anni proponent hosted somewhere from a year or two ago, where each of us submitted a paper of argument; but I’m not sure we all got around to submitting a rebuttal of the other two sides, so again I don’t know how fair that would be to point to it. It’s here on the forum somewhere though… :confused: )

Prince: I am certainly agnostic about this, but some views seem more plausible than others.

If you believe that Jesus is the human face of God, you are certainly going to take Him seriously.

While being gracious to sinners, he threatened religious bigots with hellfire using a symbolic imagery from the OT standing for utter destruction.

I think our Lord mentionned a very serious and real danger.

As I explained in my latest review of a debate of professor Randal Rauser, I am an inclusivist believing that God will still try to reach out to people beyond the grave.

But God won’t do one thing: forcing an unwilling sinner to be with Him, for this would spurn the true nature of love.

So to my mind, any person who believes in genuine freedom can only HOPE in universal salvation but NOT be confident this will occur.

I have heard many people on this forum speaking of God “getting” such as and such person as he “got Paul”.
However, what would be your feelings about a man talking about “getting” women in the same way?

So, in order to be a confident universalist, you have to believe that:

  1. Jesus was wrong for important topics
  2. genuine free will does not exist

I’m a confident universalist, and I don’t believe
-that Jesus was wrong on any important matters
-that free will does not exist