The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Calvinism vs Scriptural libertarian free will (LFW)

Are these correct conclusions re Calvinism:

Only if sinners have libertarian freewill (LFW). Any Christian theology (e.g. Calvinism) that rejects LFW leads to these conclusions:

  1. We are all puppets in God’s puppet show.

  2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.

  3. God alone is responsible for all sin.

  4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

The following is from

I posted:

Just because humans are conceived or born imperfect, or with a sinful nature, or some such thing that guarantees they will eventually sin if they don’t die first, it does not follow they do not have libertarian free will.

You replied:

There are different definitions of LFW. I didn’t offer one. One view of LFW is it is a separate entity, ability or nature within man from his fallen nature, or, perhaps, even his will that is in bondage to sin. Man is made in God’s image & likeness with a conscience. A second view of LFW is that it occurs when God enlightens & graces a human to make a choice either (a) to follow the light given or (b) to resist the light he has been given. Those are not just pretend options. The man can choose either (a) or (b). God doesn’t know which LFW choice he will make, so it is not predetermined. In this view while man’s nature & will is to some degree in bondage to sin & fallen, it is not completely so. And when enlightened & graced by God may make LFW choices.

If grace was always irresistible, why do we read:

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, also do you.

Eph. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

LFW is not a “crapshoot”, roll of the dice or a matter of pure luck. It is the Sovereign God given ability for a human to determine which of multiple options to choose. Though, perhaps, many of those (i.e. Calvinists) who wish to call LFW a “crapshoot” do so because they don’t wish to take responsibility for their own choices. Calvinism reduces men to puppets whose sins are not their own fault, but God’s fault. In essence it puts all the blame on God for human sins. And gives them an excuse for their own sins: “the devil made me do it”. Yet Scripture says men are “without excuse”.

Otherwise you’re like a computer operated robot God is making to love or hate Himself. So it’s not really you doing the loving, it’s God controlling His human puppet like a TV remote control to love Himself.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say “I love you” to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say “I love you” from her own libertarian free will?

“If I found out that my wife’s love for me has all these years been determined by some biochip in her brain by a will or wills other than her, by forces or persons other than her, my opinion and experience of HER (as friend, lover, partner, etc.) would drastically change. I would no longer be able to perceive her love for me as HER love for me.”

“…What makes me feel right about her loving me is knowing that it’s HER who is loving me. Libertarian choice is just a necessary by-product of this that comes in further down the line.”

“… If God determined your daughter’s ‘love’ for you, then in my view you can’t say “My daughter loves me and if God…” since in my view it’s GOD loving you by means of your daughter who is just merely the instrumentation of God’s actions. That’s functionally equivalent to pantheism in my view.”

“…To clarify, what I mean by charade in my previous post is God’s call of sinners to repentance, His plea for them to turn from sin by the declaration that He doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked, His command for them to humble themselves, His “regret” that He had made man before the flood, etc. The calvinist understanding of God could be characterized by a man in his room holding a sock puppet on each hand, talking to them and voicing like a ventriloquist their responses, one puppet being the bad guy and the other the “good” guy. Then, after a long ridiculous show with pretentious loud drama, he rips the bad sock off and throws it in his fireplace, while the “good” puppet cheers him on.”

"…God is a God of infinite and unconditional love… And determinism is also not on the menu because ‘love requires freedom’…Libertarian freedom is power to the contrary.

The following is from

If unregenerate humans are totally depraved & can only sin & do not have the ability of contrary choice, then they are just puppets controlled by God & or the forces He has created. As such they are not responsible for their actions. God is. For Him to send them to an endless hell for His sins makes Him to be a sadistic monster.

If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a “god”, then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that “god” would be unjust & make that “god” a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists’ actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a “god” would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy “god” except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?

I studied free will versus determinism in philosophy at the University of Manitoba.

What puzzles me most is that whereas all normal, healthy people have libertarian free will, there is a considerably large number of people who believe that they don’t. How can a free-will agent believe that he is a puppet?

I suppose the key question is…were you forced (i.e. environment, heredity, Calvinistic compatiblism, etc.) to take the class??? :rofl:

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“Hell, for example, is terrifying either way. But if Calvinism is false, people who go to hell deserve it for freely rejecting the free gift of God that was offered to justify them from their free choices to sin rather than humble themselves and repent (as opposed to Calvinist “free will” where you are like a robot designed with a program that has the variables of being able to slap with your right hand or your left, and then being charged guilty because either way you slap). If Calvinism is true, then the Bible is a charade from beginning to end, with God literally pleading for sinners to repent because He does not desire their death (Ezekiel 33:11), to humble themselves, His “regret” for man’s sinfulness before the flood, His looking into men’s hearts (1 Samuel 16:7), etc. To compound the problem, not only is life an elaborate charade, but hell is a place where people who were created to sin with no possibility of repentance will consciously endure torment for no authentic decision of their own (again, like the aforementioned robot).”

“If Calvinism is true, then Ezekiel 33:11 presents a man who embraces a child by the arms, faces him away from himself and says, “Turn back! Turn back and live, for why will you die?”, while the child tries with all his might to turn, complaining that he can’t because his father holds back and is too strong. The man acknowledges that the child is weaker and unable with any might to turn, but continues to scream “Turn and live!” while he holds him firmly away until he eventually punishes the child for not overpowering him. The calvinist may try to dispute this, saying the child is instead one who doesn’t try to turn at all, like the wicked who do not seek God in Psalms 14. The problem is in the world of Calvinism, analogously this man created the child to not turn, and so divinely holds him away while pretentiously pleading his repentant response.”

That may well be your biggest problem.

Wow! Now I see it. I was forced to take that class, and thereby forced to believe in freedom of the will!